Time to remove safety drivers!
Well, they can't function in the dark or in rain or snow. Which is when most people need to call for a ride. Classic.
Gee, not using lidar is really paying off, huh Elon?
[deleted]
"Cameras are safer than Lidar"
Your life is something Musk is willing to sacrifice for his trillion dollar payday.
Looks like having Becky use cruise control on the way to work isn’t giving you the “billions of miles of training data” that you thought it would?
How come tesla avoiding huge lawsuits. In Usa!
So, up another 5% at market open, then?
They also don't work if the sun is shining from certain angles
Why is tesla stock up again? With poor sales too.
bullish. 600 today.
They also don't work
I have a bad feeling that Tesla is going to seriously injure someone or worse and screw up self-driving cars for everyone.
That’s worth an additional $500B package. TLSA to Uranus!
If the moon is full it will be mistaken for a yellow traffic light because having a sense of actual distance(radar, lidar) is woke.
While Nole was busy extracting money from the government to build his charging network to bilk people out of money, he failed to build the infrastructure of intelligent traffic systems in cities to prevent accidents.
The sad thing is his ego and the stock price won't let him pivot, if he announces he is adding lidar it's admitting "vision only" was wrong and admitting they are years behind, it's a meme stock but the street won't be kind.
Dont €150 robot vacuums have them these days?
Tesla price target raised to 500.
Have you seen TSLA stock price? Seems to be paying off for Elon. At the expense of the fools who buy these cars.
Those are not automotive grade. But automotive lidars aren’t that expensive either.
Are you new here?
Elon will never admit he was wrong and adapt. Thats a bad combination for a CEO of a “Innovation” company.
Bend over in Robotaxi operating areas and you might end up with a Robotaxi in ur anus, if that is your thing.
That is a good point too
So, we have the end-to-end neural network software, remote supervisors, and an employee sitting in the passenger seat with a kill switch, and still the driving is an order of magnitude worse than the average human driver. No wonder TSLA is hitting all time highs!
Concerning…
Stock to the Moon
Positive news! More insurance money!
Nah, there are no consequences when rich people kill others
I think one big flaw with this analysis is that while not all Tesla Robotaxi collisions are (or are required to be) reported to the NHTSA, I think an even much higher proportion of human driven car collisions aren’t included in the human crash rates. Like if a cyclist hits a human driven car and causes no damage or injury, the parties involved probably won’t call police or report it to insurers. The NHTSA requires such accidents to be reported, and one of the eight reported Robotaxi accidents occurred when the Robotaxi was stopped, and a cylist ignored a stop sign and hit it. Another big problem is just the very low amount of data so far. While you’d still suffer from disparate reporting consistency even with 1000 times more miles and crashes, someone with access to the unredacted NHTSA crash report data could probably make a reasonable estimate of how many crashes per mile were due mainly to the Robotaxi driver vs. mainly to another driver or other party. Like if 60% of the crashes involved Robotaxis being rear-ended by other drivers while stopped at a traffic control signal, common sense would suggest that other drivers *probably* have higher collision rates than Robotaxis. While the Robotaxi proportion of their first NHTSA-reported crashes specifically for being rear-ended was 2/7, I think a couple other collisions occurred when the Robotaxis were stopped. (Going off memory). That’s pretty similar to Waymo and Zoox crash data as well, and it wouldn’t surprise me if the majority of crashes for all three services occurred while their ADS vehicles were not moving.
Yes because clearly there isn't any pushback from regulators or legislators. So if he gets away with it it's bullish
car price and stock price are unrelated, right?
This is excellent news for the share price. Should add 5%.
Greatest open Ponzi of all time.
If he was smart, he would rebrand it and claim it’s a Tesla-only technology.
Rigged the election.
In this case its better for the stock to not fully showcase what they actually have.
Fake it till you make it right, Elon? Worked well for Theranos….
Way ahead of you: https://www.tesladeaths.com/ https://www.tesla-fire.com/
Call it GigaVision
Talent left that company many years ago.
Do whats the point of your comment?
I mean car buyers aren't paying more because the stock price is higher
Could probably have had autonomous Teslas long ago if they only had to move at a max speed of 0.5 mph.
I think that's part of it but also he doesn't like the aesthetic and it would mean the Tesla fleet isn't scalable like he said it would be (e.g. every Tesla owner would make money from renting out their car since it is basically a Robotaxi)
They are going live without a human monitor in the car soon, he's going to kill someone. I bet the cars are being monitored remotely though, because Elmo always lies and there is no way the current test could be considered a success with the quoted numbers.
How Musk isn't considered a fraudster like Holmes is beyond me, all of his bullshit gets labeled as corporate puffery...maybe Holmes lawyers should have tried that. They were still working on it, it wasn't fraud, it was corporate puffery
Stock is up? /s
bruh ppl dont real lize they a real life beta tester
I don’t think the price actually matters, he even got rid of USS, and the sensors cost like a few dollars/each.
But humans have two eyes!! He told them to make it work!!! He is a genius!!
What a surprise, Elon is full of shit once again.
Wao Tesla robotaxi is indeed so good so better than human. Because it is literally much better than humans to crash
Are you a bot or something? The fact that $150 robo vacuum has a single point lidar is meaningless as that is totally different from automotive frame lidar that gives 3D point cloud “picture”. However said frame lidars have really gone down on cost, car makers probably can source them for around $200-400 range.
Yeah, tell that to the backup camera in my MYLR that gets covered in dirty water easily, or the side pillar camera that fogs up at the drop of a hat. If Tesla was as serious as they said they were about building my car so it can run FSD, all of these cameras would have defrosters and wipers. But they don’t, so Tesla was never serious about FSD — and that’s reflected in the way the software performs when running on my car.
But.... but.... they painted the word Robotaxi on the side. Surely that counts for something.
The one from the keta?
He has to lose the right people money first
CyberVision
So how did they claim better safety? What data did they use? Lying again?
Yeah, you can buy a ~~$12~~ $5.39 replacement camera module for a smart phone that's equipped for lidar (still needs a chip to process it, but lidar is much easier for a computer to process than visual data). The range on these units is not enough to cover driving at highway speeds, but not running into things or over people when parking? Very much something that could be implemented with inexpensive commodity cameras.
Stock will go up sureme court will make corporations blanket not liable and no premise will be given. Reasonable vehicles will tarrifed into oblivion
And the stock goes up
The cars yes, the stock not :D
With safety monitors!
There is no consequence when the richest person kills others.
Over in Tesla subreddit they are gaga over robotaxis without humans in the car.
MechaHitlerVision
Apparently they are testing robotaxis with no safety drivers. Video with one was posted Monday on X by a tesla influencer. Gee I wonder how they got that information and video....
What about Gatsby? I mean he didnt do the killin but he was rich and died. Wait thats fiction, never mind
New model x and s already cone with radar now. Currently disabled, but there is a reason why they out that hardware in there.
And this is with human operators lol
They compared highway miles with FSD/s to all miles with human drivers.
It's like he was given a "press to kill 1 random person for $1 million" button, and he's spent every second since hitting it as fast as he can.
So dumber than a horse
No, no, no, Elon told me his car robots are just a tad safer than human drivers.
Lololol
So their apples were better than sour plums then? Their statistician ought to be fired.
Is this innovation?
Do they run on ketamine too?
Yeah he made some really weird choices on this and he didn't have to so firmly make a stance here, to the point that now he would lose face if he were to change his mind. He also doesn't present as a very smart engineer in this area. E.g. he posted about what to do if you have multiple sensor types and they "disagree", as if that's an unsolvable or even a bad problem to have. His solution is to simply have less data to make decisions with, this way there is no "disagreement". Again, this is not how an engineer thinks.
VisionX But it would be made of units only bought off Temu
Any info from elektrek is nonsense.
No lidars to repair/replace in a crash? Stocks going up today
2016: We're two years away from full self driving 2017: We're two years away from full self driving 2018: We're two years away from full self driving 2019: We're two years away from full self driving 2020: We're two years away from full self driving 2021: We're two years away from full self driving 2022: We're two years away from full self driving 2023: We're two years away from full self driving 2024: We're two years away from full self driving 2025: We're two years away from full self driving
"They should call it, *LIE*DAR!! 69! 420!! WOOOO!!!" *Stock price goes up 20%* -Elon Musk, 2025 shareholder meeting.
Martian vision.
And forward only.
Is this 12x more than a human Tesla driver? That would be even worse.
I always loved laughing at the people who are like, “They don’t have to be perfect. They just have to be better than the worst human driver to start making things better. And they already are. It’s just that humans are too dumb to put Elon in charge of everything.”
I don’t think serious people ever believed Tesla owners would make money renting their cars out to be Robotaxis. That just doesn’t make any sense to anyone who has worked in the automotive or service industries. I doubt he has ever seriously believed his own hype about the potential for the Tesla fleet.
You absolutely know he would call it X vision.
They got a slap on the wrist for deceptive advertising that the CA DMV stayed for the penalty of banning sales.
Turns out "it only has to be safer than human drivers" isn't such a low bar after all. Or it is a low bar and...
And weirdly enough it’s the only video out there. You‘d think more people were capturing that…
Again why are they not required to pass a government driving test just like any driver. Graduated licience.
Where did they get their numbers? The average human drives 14,000 miles per year. One crash every 36 years is average? Seems dubious.
I wonder how this statistic compares with Waymo, which appears to be far more advanced technically?
He already has, with so-called FSD 😱
A Roomba would do better
I mean, I'm extremely critical of Tesla, and there's loads of things to be critical of, but it doesn't do anyone any favors to spread misinformation. FSD can operate in the dark, in the rain, and the snow at various levels. For the dark, we have plenty of videos showing it operating and having solid visibility at night. It's also operating at night in the robotaxi trials, AFAIK. That said, does it operate as well in the dark as it does during the day... we don't know because Tesla hasn't released any data saying one way or the other. We only have anecdotal evidence from youtube videos and a bit of accident data from the robotaxi trials. Same goes for rain. We know it can operate in the rain, but how well... we have no idea. For the most part, all we have is anecdotal evidence, often from FSD owners who spent a fortune on the system and generally have huge sums of money invested into Tesla and other Musk companies, where they've likely made a killing and consider themselves to be glorified unpaid Tesla interns for Tesla's testing and advertisement departments. What we do know is that Tesla was hesitant to allow robotaxi rides in Austin during inclement weather. No idea if that policy's been changed since August. Snow is where we have the least evidence the system works at any decent level, but again, we have some anecdotal evidence that it works to some degree. How well compared to clear daytime conditions, no one knows... My common sense speculation thinks this use case has been minimally tested / developed, and has a long way to go. Even so... none of the robotaxi trials are being performed in snowy reasons, so for now, the point is moot. Maybe it matters for Tesla FSD owners who think their cars will eventually get OTA updates that make their cars fully autonomous and robotaxis while they sleep, I highly doubt that ever happens and Tesla renegs on this "promise". Note that in the FSD contract language, it never guarantees FSD owners that they'll EVER get access to robotaxi capabilities.
People believe it, but it makes no sense. You wouldn't sell a car that can passively generate 30k a year, you'd just become a taxi company and rent the car yourself, nit sell a 300,000k generating asset for 55k. Just like Optimus. If tesla invents a robot that can do household chores, they'd never sell it for 30k. They'd rent it for 20k every year
Gigavision? Lie-dar was right there…
They turn left ok, but after their third Reich they crash
Yeah, Tesla influencer community on X is insufferable. Just an echo chamber of drones
Rivian CEO just made that pitch for sensor fusion, yes
I don't even like coworkers in my passenger seat LOL
https://youtu.be/N2l2KcwBXZ8?si=jak6-1xIQh2bPG8L&t=281 shows a troublesome incident from July. Clearly something just ain't working right with that stack at night, back then at least. If I were an FSD researcher I'd have "solved" parking lots first, not last, but that's why I don't make the big bucks I guess
Shocking to no one
Some even only 1!
Yes but a tesla cant get stuck under the stove
It's impossible to say if that happened because it was dark out, versus any other problem with the system. It's possible that the headlight reflecting off of the other car's side panel, or the reflection off the side panel blinding the camera to what's actually next to the car, which would be a night time specific problem. It could also just be an issue of bad camera placement and camera proximity to the other car, not giving the camera enough information to determine there's an object next to it. (It's just one big panel of paint without any definition for the camera to recognize) The big problem there would be a lack of radar sensors. I've argued before that the removal of the radar sensors had nothing to do with improving the system or improving safety. Musk removed them during radar parts shortages during the pandemic, because it was the only way to ship cars when global car supply sunk on account of parts shortages, and vehicle prices skyrocketed. Musk removed the radar to boost sales when vehicle prices were high, with the hope that cameras alone could be good enough to replace the radars. BTW, my first reply wasn't meant to suggest the system works well enough to be fully autonomous, I'm just saying that the person I responded to's statement that the system "can't function" in the dark isn't necessarily true. There's been misinformation circulating about the system not being able to see at night, claiming there isn't enough light for the cameras to pick up, but videos of the system's camera feeds at night show that the system can see quite clearly at night. As to solving parking first... this entire exercise by Tesla isn't happening because they believe the system is ready and all of the issues solved. It's happening because Musk wanted to pump the stock.
yeah I've put thousands of miles on FSD at night over the past 2 years so I'm familiar with it. Key thing is it has to work *perfectly* at night. That, I still can't rely on, even if I want to sneak some Zs in while on FSD . . .
TSLA stock hit a recent high too
Well, you can't rely on FSD during the day. Your comfort on admitting to breaking the law on reddit is interesting, unless you're just joking.
The more that crash the less inventory he sits on. Win win
This data is directly from Tesla themselves. Miles traveled divided by accidents occurred.
Agreed, I always found the argument that ‘fusion is too hard’ or ‘what should you do if sensors disagree’ to be symptomatic of deficient engineering, considering other companies can make it work.
The f35 was doing sensor fusion decades ago
As the article notes, all crashes have occurred with human safety monitors in the vehicle. This means one of two things is true: Human safety monitors are stepping in to avoid some accidents, artificially deflating the number of accidents robotaxis would be causing, OR Human safety monitors are not effective at preventing accidents in the first place.
Would lidar have made any difference? To me the AI brain is at fault, not the sensor not seeing.
Well Turo exists
Also the stock price is not congruent with sales or profits for the company. It is entirely hype-valued. If Tesla were valued like a car company, its market cap would be $80 billion instead of $1.6 trillion
You'll need lidar capable of detecting objects 1,000 feet away at a much higher resolution as well.
The Space Shuttle had it in the 1970s.
Sounds right. There goes their “safer than humans” lies
Surprise ? If there is a liar running the conpany and only relies on camera. This is what you get I hope people and insurance sues his ass off
These numbers are from last month btw. Tesla had 7 *reported* crashes and said they had roughly 250,000 miles driven with robotaxi. That means a crash rate of once every 40k miles. The average for a human is ~ once every 500k
Because these numbers are from last month. I mean I doubt they've improved but it's not exactly breaking news
*He also doesn't present as a very smart engineer in this area.* He doesn't present as a very smart engineer in any area. When real engineers hear him talk, they hear all the words and phrases an engineer would use, but they're always used in a subtly wrong way - he knows the words, but not what they really mean.
Waymo is far superior and it's not just lidar. They use pre-generated high definition maps for every street they operate on - plus radar.
What’s not told is what was the accident. Did they get rear ended? Was it teslas fault? Was it avoidable? That’s what matters. Numbers with no context means nothing and elektrek is a known biased tesla basher
If it's 12x as often as a human it really doesn't matter who's at fault.
But fElon tells us robots are 1 gazillion times safer!
GigaCyberXvision will be an extra $8K
They crash at this high rate during a time when humans crash the least no less. They would crash far more often if they drove during all conditions.
This was a vehicle with none in it. Basically they determine a route, ensured it was the least risk, told a few select people the location and sent it on the way.
Exactly. Aside from the $98 billion dollars of annual revenue, what exactly has Musk or Tesla done? Holmes lawyers should have just tried making $98 billion and maybe she would have gotten away with it. Tesla is Theranos 2.0 confirmed.
Yes it would. Look at Waymo.
The person who wrote the article should go back to journalism school. What exactly does "are crashing" mean? Causing more crashes? If the reporter wrote the article correctly without bias, the article would state instead of "are crashing" it should say "are involved in". BIG difference! Each report has not enough information to determine the cause and severity of each incident. If I wanted to bash Tesla, I'd report that Robotaxi caused all the crashes with lots of damages and injuries. If I was a Tesla fanboy, I'd report these incidents are all minor, like an unattended grocery cart rolling into a parked Robotaxi. Is the Robotaxi at fault? Tesla has to report every incident whether or not it is at fault. Of course, the article is going to get more clicks stating Tesla has 12x more crashes. I know I clicked on it. I wish I had those 5 minutes back.
That’s a pretty damning stat. If robotaxis are crashing *that* much more than human drivers, the tech clearly isn’t ready for prime time — no matter how much hype or stock pumping is wrapped around it.
Well, lidar is vision, sort of…
"we found the human driver held back the system and is to blame, why we fired them" - Elon , once he reads the news.
Yup. To a lesser degree. But yeah. Point being is that correlating sensors is literally what computers are good at.
It's a bit of both, but a "brain" is only able to process what it's inputs are providing, and when your inputs are limited to cameras by someone arbitrarily with the mindset "humans don't have lidar" (more or less his reasoning) as opposed to lidar+cameras and other sensors, the inputs become the major bottleneck, not so much the brain of the operation. It's really just his fault and ego at the heart of the issue.
He barely even knows the words. When I hear him talk about web development, it seriously gives me 80s sci-fi writer level of technological jargon. He sometimes literally just makes up terms.
Incorrect, musk said they were 8 gillion times safer.
It would be ironic if Elmo was killed by a robotaxi.
It's a bad idea.
Yea, no shit. Faux Self Driving.
i pointed out something similar. basically that a "crash" is not a "crash" is not a "crash" is not a "crash". and i can guarantee that the two miles/crash calculations didn't use the same definition of "crash".
the comparison is complete nonsense...let's make THAT clear from the very beginning. there are two important words that need defining when determining miles per crash. they are the definition of the words "mile", and "crash". and they must be identical definitions. and more importantly the criteria used to determine what is and is not a "crash" must be identical too. the definition of "mile" need not be addressed. and seeing as how Tesla uses their criteria for determining what is and isn't a "crash", and some unknown entity (is it the NTSB perhaps, we don't even know) uses their criteria for determining what is a "crash" there is no way to even begin to know if the "crash" numbers bear any relationship to one another at all! i'm surprised that people need to have this pointed out to them, smh.
Ooooh, new hope unlocked!
Or the windshield being slightly dirty.
Turo still requires a driver
Must be nice to constantly fail and what you are attempting to do and somehow have your stock increase and you get trillion dollar pay packages.
Couple that with the windshield wipers working at random which is the Tesla norm still. Or just have them wiping all the time
Hmm. \>*lektrek* also crunched some numbers based on data released by Tesla last month and estimated that the Tesla Robotaxis are involved in a crash for every 40,000 miles they drive. This would be implying robotaxis as a whole have only driven about 400,000 mils in the past 5 months? Not sure that seems right, unless they only have a handful on the road.
I don't know what hardware is in the Tesla robo taxis, but Tesla has a lot of cars on the road that run FSD on HW3 which has a tensor compute of 75 TOPS, roughly equivalent to two iPhones. Waymos are equipped with four nvidia H100s for well over 12,000 TOPS. It's hard to say how much of a factor lidar is when there's also a huge difference in model and compute.
Tesla tech is trash. The cars are outdated!
&/or*
And yet, the stock just keeps going up... What the fuck is going on with the world?
He has to be using his billions to pump it up. There's no other explanation. Why else would he gut every gov body investigating him? He's doing something dodgy because as you say, it just doesn't make any logical sense
FSD is mostly completely safe.
Tesla FSD functions in exactly the same environments that the human eye functions.
Concerning.
Or 3, the human saftey drivers are intervening, CAUSING the accident that fsd would have avoided it they had just waited a bit longer. Not saying thats true, but its a possibility.
First X files
I’m not an engineer, but my understanding is that adding LiDAR at this point is not possible because it would entail retraining the entire fleet, which would be both prohibitively expensive and time consuming. In other words, Tesla is stuck with Elon’s original decision to go camera only.
was sind hier für kranke hirsln unterwegs? ist das euer hobby? nix wissen und davon viel? unglaublich...............
und nur dämliche deutsche mit englischen namen!?
0-Vision
X-ray vision
That will be the name of his next kid. And then he will claim that his kid invented X rays while he was still in the womb. Then he will buy Ray-Ban and rename it to XRay and tell everyone he invented both sunglasses and the sun.
So just for clarification, the stat for robotaxi crashing is 1 in 40,000 miles (In Austin Texas specifically) . But the human statistic for crashes (1 in 500,000) is a measurement of humans all over the US in all situations. Wouldn't that make this statistic basically meaningless? We would need statistics for comparing human drivers specifically in Austin Texas, no? Someone correct me if I am wrong here.
Things change quickly. Since 14.2 came out I've used FSD for 99% of the last 5000 miles. Day, night, cities, country roads, heavy rain, but no snow experience personally. I know you've heard this before and you don't have to believe a random guy on the internet, but your intuitions and prior news articles about the state of FSD go obsolete quickly. Direct experience with the latest release is the only way to understand how polished FSD is getting. IMHO 14.2 is way safer than a human driver.
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