Tesla (TSLA) is not paying its bills and it is destroying small American businesses

I imagine their perspective of it is why pay them when they have lawyers on retainer anyways and can litigate them to death putting the small business out of business.

I’ve said this before, Teslas cash on hand is not reliable. They’ve been pushing out payments for years until it’s now around 90 days before they pay suppliers. So when they report cash on hand it’s likely before paying their bills, if they’re even paying them like we’re seeing here.

Each and every person who owns a Tesla has directly contributed to this behavior. Attention Tesla owners... This is YOUR fault.

Agreed. In my opinion, anyone who looks at the Tesla financials or their earnings statements and thinks that they are legitimate is an absolute moron.

We’re in the Golden Age of Fraud and no one is there to police it

This worked for Trump. If you have zero empathy and can deal with the stress of being deposed regularly, this is a "winning" strategy for Oligarchs.

I don't think you know what the word "directly" means.

trump doesn't pay. Why should tesla?

So many resources squandered, so much destroyed by this scumbag Musk. These God awful factories are going to be blots on the landscape long after Tesla goes bust.

Just like Trump does. Yuck to this so much.

First company to a PE of 200!

It's not fraud, it's AI accounting. There is a difference somehow.

"without anything else being involved or in between"

Yet companies will run in to trip over each other to get Elon's business. Honestly they should have bid on work contingent on getting paid signing contracts were completing the work is mandatory but pay is optional is going to have predictable results.

What a total surprise. Scumbag corporation led by a scumbag does scumbaggery.

Big fishes eat smaller ones. It’s the way of the universe.

...while parking all the cars they can't sell on the streets of Long Beach.

I find this is true in the US for a lot of things. Everything is solved through court after the fact. There are no ombudsman, no inspections before and if there is, they have no teeth and will just write a report that is stayed until litigation is resolved. So it pretty much ends up with any wrong doing being 'cost of doing business' and with the insane amount of money in the US, it's just always the correct business decision just ride it out.

Unfortunately pushing payments back, especially in the last month of the quarter, is normal industry practice. Ford used to be an absolute shit for it (they may be better now).

[Always been like this.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawks_Nest_Tunnel_disaster)

I mean, Tesla is literally in between and involved

Looking like BYD then?

You should take a look at Palantir...

👆

Holy Shit! I had no idea and I am blown away. Not only are they a super evil company with no morals, they also are a stock swindle. I am blown away and this makes me like them even less (hard to believe I could like them any less then I did already).

This has no relation to that analogy.

Yeah, more of a joke valuation wise and even more evil than Tesla-which is really saying something. There are 1000 plus PE companies too though, a lot of smaller companies can get some crazy numbers.

To be fair, buying a car from him today IS directly contributing to this **behavior.** Not directly responsible for the small business going bankrupt, but the people who buy stock and cars are the ones making the behavior possible.

It is before paying their bills. It's a normal working capital metric.  They've got about a year's worth of cash on hand, according to their quarterly financials, which I'm not sure how much I trust.

Same thing Trump used to do, get free goods and services and then refuse to pay.

The tRump playbook.

Yep, same playbook.

If they had to file for bankruptcy it's more than a few months into the quarter that they were late in paying.

Go buy some jeans

Don't be that person. A lot of decent people own them and had no idea Elon was a Nazi until this past year. What if someone decides your car brand is a problem and goes after you.

Is this news? Both Musk and Trump are notorious for not paying their due, they discovered that it's cheaper to go to court.

I read them. Man, something sure didn’t add up. This feels like Enron and I don’t know why….

Elon behaves just like his girl friend Trump

If one simply looks at Elon Musk and his very public track record of false statements and his dishonest and intentionally misleading statements (and actions), how would any sane person conclude that while all that exists we are supposed to believe he's controlled all these natural flaws when it came to reporting his financials? That's a bridge way too far for me to ever believe.

Speaking for myself, I’m perfectly happy to judge every motherfucker who drives a Cybertruck, Juniper Model Y, and Highland Model 3. They knew exactly what the Tesla brand stood for when they bought their vehicles, and were happy to be a part of it. I rarely let one go by without giving them the middle finger, and if someone showed up in one for a date I sure as hell wouldn’t fuck them. Older cars make it a bit more complicated. We sold our used 2018 Model 3 right after the Elon’s Nazi salute and switched to a used 2022 Kia NiroEV for nearly no money outlay (the Niro cost us $500), but I do understand some folk are in a different situation.

Georgia too. Random shops have Cybertrucks in parking lots.

Enron vibes

I used to work at a small machine shop in fremont ca and we would machine parts for tesla all the time. Im wondering if theyre also not getting paid.

So I guess Elon learned some things while working with Trump

No shit though it’s crazy. Corporate fraud has been totally unchecked and pretty much rewarded since before 2008. It’s crazy af

Tesla is gonna make Enron look like 2007 JP Morgan

I bet a lot of cash is owed to companies that supplied his equipment to make his shit.

Richest guy in the world got there by fucking the little people. So admirable.

Tesla takes it to the extreme. I've spoken to many Tesla suppliers over the years. I don't even have to say anything other than "Tesla" and the first word out of their mouths is "they don't pay their bills". (This also applies to SpaceX and any other Musk company) They only get away with it because they're a big name and there's a long list of suppliers waiting to tell prospective clients that Tesla is one of their customers. Things must be getting bad, because earlier this year, Tesla sent a supplier a new contract requesting Net 270 terms. Fucking comical.

He's just like Trump. They all suck so bad

I mean small companies in the start of a massive growth phase or with unique ip that is about to scale makes a lot more sense 1000 x a small number is much easier to catch up to. When you are already a top 10 company you need to grow earnings by about $27 billion to make it in line with mag7 peers

It shows how bad the analogy is, actually. The smallest of virus can kill the biggest of fish. It's not the size it's how you use it is probably a better analogy.

Net 270? Fuuuuuuuuuuck! That's horrendous. And it's the kind of thing that you'd only get away with, with mid size suppliers. The big boys wouyld outright reject it, and the small companies couldn't afford it.

Isn’t that what 47 does to his vendor/contractors? I used to be a small business owner and the talk in the community was: “stay away from them, they don’t pay or just a fraction. And if you complain, they threaten you with lawsuits, which you cannot afford.” Payment terms from big companies are more and more long term (90 days or more), so they are using small businesses like a bank with zero interest.

Do what makes you happy but if someone has smashed your windshield before you traded it in you would not be happy about it.

I've experienced this first hand. My uncle has a shop near their Fremont factory, and I used to frequent his shop to help out. Tesla would place orders and won't pay him 6-12 months after we deliver finished goods to them. I know first hand, because I was the one that had to constantly email and call them and tell them to pay us so we can have money to buy more materials. This has been going on for 7+ years. As of right now, Tesla still has $400k+ in outstanding invoices from us.

So following in Trump's footsteps? Why am I not shocked?

Just like Daddy Trump

What company would be like yes take 2/3 of a year to pay us and be like yep lest get that signed up real nice now.

A la Trump - screw your contractors.

Where did I say ANYTHING about damaging peoples’ property? I think anyone who bought a Tesla after the Nazi salute is a huge piece of shit, because they knew exactly what the brand stood for. But I think the same thing about people with other Nazi imagery on their vehicles (not unheard of here in Oregon). At the same time I think people with anti-gay bumper stickers are assholes. Same goes for proud MAGA folk. And if I see another “Black rifles matter” sticker I may scream. But me giving someone the finger or not wanting to be friends or not sleeping with them, isn’t smashing their windshield and it’s fucking weird to conflate those things.

quelle surprise it runs on delulu hopes and dreams at this point

I'm not going to entertain your nonsense.

And so, the richest man in the world either can not or will not pay his bills. What does that say about his character?

Feels like Enron, looks like Cisco

The orange turd playbook

See. He did learn something when he was working with donald

How great would it be if simply no one would agree a contract with them anymore? Thanks man, but no thanks. Do your piping yourself. Let’s see how long a business (even a crooked one like Tesla) can last without any contractors.

$1 trillion market valuation? Please.

I wonder where they learned to NOT pay for what they should be paying for. Seems like and orange turd did/does the same

They couldn’t even pay a local bakery for pies they ordered in Texas. Years ago. What makes you think they’re paying their suppliers lmao.

3/4

That's close to what happened to them here in Sweden. Tesla did it's usual Tesla thing and pressured the workers to not unionize. It worked on young inexperienced workers, but finally the swedish Metall union caught wind of it.  Strike ensued, more and more of the young workers joined the union. Tesla flew in workers as strike busters rather than signing the collective agreement.  Then the support strikes started. Postal, Electrician, Plumbers. The last I heard was that garbage was piling up outside, superchargers weren't connected to the grid. Tesla stooped to hiring actual criminals to sign up phony addresses so the factory somehow could get it's hands on license plates. Probably doesn't matter anymore tho, latest sales figures were down 84.5%. You don't mess with European unions.

Sounds like Elon and Donald do business the same way. Contract with local businesses, then stiff them.

Anytime I look at TA or FA of Tesla, I want to but puts. That isn’t working lol. It’s such a meme

He probably took his advice on business. Pay if you can sued and even then. Press secretary probably the same.

Never buy puts on TSLA. Wall Street is making boatloads of money by keeping a $1T company that is riddled with problems propped up. Don't buy puts on Carvana either. Same story.

If i remember correctly, Tesla FCF went down massively over the last quarters. If they are not even paying a mere 24 million in unpaid bills to small contractors, that really rings all sorts of alarm bells. This company is a scam on the scale we haven't seen before. Enron was child's play compared to this, once it blows up.

Out of curiosity, what financials are you referring to?

Let me guess... their bitcoin holdings are strategically used to smooth things over...

Tesla is taking it in the teeth on its Cybertruck so it is only fair for everyone else to take it in the teeth as well, eh? s/

It’s not like richest man in the world owns this company and could pay some bills /s

https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/s/rejCz2tq7L Not getting any better…

There will be a new group of fools who will be willing to give Musk free shit and go out of business in the process. The street smart business owners will avoid doing any business with Tesla.

That’s wild can u make them pay late fees for this

I would laugh and say nope. I would not even take their calls period.

Yeah I do not feel sorry for any business at this point knowing who they are dealing with and still willing to do business with them.

Which Big 4 is auditing them? Surely there's some auditors / former big 4 in this thread that can chime in on how likely there's fraud here.

Why when a sketchy owner called me up to do sub work I asked for a big pile of cash. Made him go to the bank and cash out and pay me upfront before we left 😂. He barely made any money but he was in a bind and I was the only one willing to do the work. He asked me don’t I trust him and I said nope. Had no choice already had the customer and was paid and it was someone you did not want to disappoint. Was good money

Your uncle not a street smart business owner and letting it get to 400K is really insane.

Yes the cash is definitely reported before paying their bills (as it is with every other public US company). You can see their liabilities in the AP balance. cash on hand is probably the most reliable and hardest to fake item in a financial report.

having a high valuation doesnt make it a "stock swindle"

This was the Trump card back in the day.

you flip off every new Tesla you see? Seek help.

It's the high price to earnings ratio that is the problem. Not the valuation.

Sounds like a certain world leaders track record or ripping off contactors.

Lol, we tried but they never paid the late fees. Then we have to decide to cancel future 7-figure orders or go to court with them on late fees. I'm sure the answer is obvious.

There’s been some good points made about that reported number though, I believe it’s in the $30b area range now. - Why is it that they’re not getting interest income on that cash that comes even close to what they’d get with that amount? Their earned interest is very low - Why do they even need to stockpile that much cash and not put it into R&D or a new model, instead of doing weak facelifts on existing 3/Y and ridiculous vaporware like the Cybercab and van?

This certainly isn't about street smart but about human vs. Galactus. It's like saying why Samsung still make Apple parts when they're competitor. The answer is very simple: money. Tesla is my uncle's 90% customer/revenue. If Tesla stops ordering parts from him, my uncle would literally go bankrupt within months. Yes, there is a huge backlog invoices due, but my uncle also making a shitload from Tesla. The point here is that Tesla's ethics with their contractors is shit, but they're the Galactus and we live or die by their mercy. Sucks and I hate Tesla but this is the real world.

Damn fuck them im sorry it happened

I read somewhere that they tried that with a French company who laughed at them and told them that was illegal in France. They did not believe them. They contacted another French company who told them the same thing. Any contract above a certain threshold has to be paid with 120 days. The law was passed to avoid supermarkets crushing small and medium suppliers.

This is what trump does. It’s a sign the business is going under

90 days is normal

That was in San Jose.

>In two cases, contractors, most often small American businesses, had to file for bankruptcy due to the unpaid bills I'm having trouble understanding what this is trying to say. Using "most often" when you have just two cases is odd. If it is both cases you would say "both". If it is just one that is not "most".

PWC.

Jim Chanos, baby.

120 price to SALES.

If they only need the Tesla name as their customers … well, fuck them! If it is clear that you will have to fight for your Money, too bad we have delivery problems or we are cash strapped and can not pay the truck driver bal bla bla. Give them their own medicine.

You would be crazy to deal with Tesla, or to buy one. At this rate dealers will be closing by the hundreds within months.

Tough call but they will in the end fuck you over badly. They will pay later and the orders will get bigger and the last orders will not be paid because the ship 🚢 is sinking fast. Tesla will some day in future go south in weeks. Not tomorrow, or next week but in the next years, the scam will end fast.

Shoot yeah it was. Idk why I thought it was Texas

I suspect that they stiff caterers everywhere they operate.

They never have been legitimate. Take away carbon credits, EV purchase rebates, import restrictions and tarrifs against competing EV brands and finally state tax subsidies and you have a company that is dependant on handouts and protectionism to survive. Tesla has been suckling from the tax payer teet since day one. The good ol' USA mantra, socialise the losses and privatise the profits Let's also not forget this is how Elmo runs his businesses. Twitter did the same once he took over, refused to pay creditors and relied on the fact smaller businesses couldn't afford to sue them and fight their legal teams drawing out claims.

Big companies use their size to abused smaller companies.

Net 90 payment terms are pretty common. Many large companies are well beyond that. 🤷🏻‍♂️

So - just like Trump. :(

Anyone surprised yet? He’s like his buddy LittleDonnieFatFingers.

On the first question, they reported 400M in interest income in a quarter, or 1.6M for a year. On 36M that's 4.4% a year. Exactly what you'd expect on cash. Where do you have the impression that it's low. On the second, it's hard for me to say why they are keeping that much cash. Apple has 48M in cash, cash equivs and short term investment. Google has 95B. So it not like other mega caps dont keep a lot of cash. Trust me, Tesla is not fudging their cash numbers. Again, it's the easiest thing for auditors to verify on the financials.

sweet jesus man, you know that that "price" in that equation is the valuation. What you said make absolutely no sense, and I award you no points.

Shit company

I understood that reference… 😬 Just gotta throw Tyco in there for the trifecta: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyco_International

“The robot did it!”

Don’t forget, Arthur Anderson was one of the big auditors that audited Enron…

house of cards - gonna eventually fall - and tesla owners are gonna be sitting on lithium bricks. who the hell is going to recycle all this stuff when it stops working?

This is interesting. There are similar reports about BYD.

"Oh we owe you money? Sure, we'll send you a couple of FSD cars to pick you up and drive you to the bank!"

There's a certain President that also loved/loves not paying their bills and suppliers. Also best friends with Epstein.

Curious... this exactly what was said about BYD a few months ago -- and offered as evidence it is not profitable, and maybe a house of cards, teetering on collapse. [https://www.reddit.com/r/teslainvestorsclub/comments/1inlox9/byds\_supply\_chain\_financing\_masks\_ballooning\_debt/](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslainvestorsclub/comments/1inlox9/byds_supply_chain_financing_masks_ballooning_debt/) Of course, that could be the case of BYD \*and\* Tesla. Or not. Hard to know what's true.

But they have the funds to fund a faceist political party that is in power right now. In the past week or so he donated like $15 milion to the republican party fundraiser or smth like that.

Right, in the end they'll stiff you completely for a big load and that's 7 years of profit gone

If the cost of a lawsuit a, is less then the cost of the accident b, we simply don’t do a recall.

Who on Earth is selling to Tesla??

Ah, the Trump way of doing business. Birds of a feather those two.

okay mr. stock broke ass

90 days is not unheard of. I’ve worked with 2 of the Big 3. The standard terms were 75 days for one, 90 days for the other.

This is correct, they are working the float and as the unsold inventory pikes up the ash drain accelerates it will bleed them. Not paying contractors is a really bad sign of an uncaring management.

Dude I know what valuation means and I know what PE means as well. A 600 PE makes no sense. I don't want your points, you're just here to argue.

If only there was recorded history that showed how MAGA billionaires treat their smaller contractors. If only.

Just like Trump who is notorious for not paying bills.

Could you imagine the repercussions of being financially associated with a con artist?

Can we get an ELI5 for what Net 270 terms means for someone not familiar?

Just like DJT. The GOP is a criminal organization just like the Trump organization and apparently just like Musk.

We’ve got a church parking lot in godless washington state that’s chuck full of cybertrucks and model 3/ys. The morbid curiosity in me wants to chalk mark their tires to see how long they just…sit there.

I hate Tesla bc I literally know how bad they treat their contractors and employees, but let's be real here: Tesla isn't going to go bankrupt anytime soon, especially with their cult following. At the first sign of them going belly up, I'm damn sure my uncle will rip them apart for every penny lol.

And taxpayers pay for it (like the 2008 bailouts or the blatant covid PPP "loan" theft).

Yeah, let’s give ‘em aNOTHER tax break!

Typical American mega business success story

Sorry to hear that your uncle is making shit loads of money by being forced to do business with Nazis.

Tesla, and in turn the cult, have been insisting for years that all Tesla batteries get recycled yet these systems still don't exist in any meaningful way

Trump moves

PLTR is way ahead of them.

Carvana is super sus to me but I can’t put a finger on exactly where it will break.

Sadly Elon just following Donald Trump’s lead of not paying his bills. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/09/donald-trump-unpaid-bills-republican-president-laswuits/85297274/

Page 52 of the Donald Trump cheat code.

What happens if the company Tesla owes money to disappears? Do they still owe the debt or do they get rewarded? Amazing how the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Sounds like Elon deserves another billion bonus pay.

Dude in the article: >In bankruptcy filings, Full Circle Technologies said Tesla owed it nearly $600,000 and that it was “forced to take on short term high interest loans to bridge the gap between performing the work for Tesla and the payment for its services.” When a creditor began to levy the company’s bank accounts, the company said it had no option but to file for bankruptcy. Tesla then made its own claim in the bankruptcy hearings, stating Full Circle actually owed the carmaker money for allegedly breaching its contract. The two companies ultimately settled, but Full Circle CEO Abheeshek Sharma told CNN that Tesla was released from its obligation without paying a cent. Better tell your uncle!

> Tesla isn't going to go bankrupt anytime soon Given their current (crooked) accounting, they can swallow one to two quarter of the current losses and then they'll have to liquidate assets or perform stock dilutions which should bring stock price to the floor.

Why do people continue to contract with tesla if they dont pay? Better yet, why do people do stuff for Trump if he is notorious for not paying? Like are we talking about truly stupid people or is it something else?

90 days isn't that much for large companies. Airbnb pays at 60 days for example. 90 days is on the high end, and you probably can't go further than that without major pushback. It's also not hard for smaller companies to get loans to cover the excess cash needs if necessary. As long as they pay regularly, they are a great business partner. The large volume ensured profitability. Not paying is a real problem also likely the declining volume they are experiencing today is hurting their vendors. 90 days to pay is fairly easy for suppliers to manage. Businesses don't live paycheck to paycheck and have accounting professionals to manage their cash flow. Their cash is absolutely reliable if the only issue is their days to pay suppliers. Also, you can look at short term assets vs short term liabilities to get the full picture of risk.

It is clear that Tesla did this systematically over the last quarter. Main reason is probably not that they are running out of money (not yet), but to hide a severely negative cash flow. This is a ticking time bomb for Tesla. For the moment, Tesla is somewhat safe due to NDAs and the fear of contractors to lose their orders. However, IF this reaches the public, it is lights out very soon.

You give me stuff now. I...... might pay you for it in 9 months. Until then dont call me.

I mean, the Company is named Palantir, after the 'seeing spheres' i.e. crystal balls, of Tolkien's lore. Y'know, the crystal balls that Sauron clouded to feed the heroes false information?

Nazis

Florida too

If there was only a way to have known

A friend told me Boeing tried to push his company to net 120 day terms.

There are hundreds and hundreds of Teslas put to rest on the parking lot of a closed shopping mall \[oh the irony\] in a wealthy St Louis suburb.

Shareholders beware. It’s a bad red flag with cash flow is being managed by punishing suppliers.

But Musk just got a $29billion CEO compensation package… makes sense.

Yeah, he's not exactly hiding what type of businessman he is.

The trump way!

So that's the common ground Musk found with Trump...

Does anybody actually think it's legitimate. Lots of people will join a ponzi scheme voluntarily, in the belief they can cash out before it crashes.

The nice thing about writing software for companies like this is the ability to add digital licensing requirements and yank said license when they don't pay... No pay, no worky.

And how much is Tesla’s market valuation? Investment made by stockholders are meant to help corporations expand the business. Paying its suppliers and employees should have been top expense. Shame on Tesla

Hanging around with Trump has really rubbed off on him!

Elon is the king of deadbeats.

Maybe that a trillion dollar company wouldn’t be profitable without almost $3B in regulatory credits? Dramatic Negative YoY sales? Maybe ways being pointed out, they aren’t paying debts?

I did buy puts but never again. I’ll get the urge then look at TSLA and see it rise on any news, mostly bad.

Wall Street can keep "a giant pile of shit wrapped in tinfoil" inflated to a 500 billion dollar market cap for as long as they want... Tesla and Carvana are two great examples. I'll concede (for this exercise) that those particular "Wall Street guys" are smarter than I am when it comes to finance, stock trading mechanics, and about the industries they follow. So, I must ask myself, if they are smarter than me, then they also know that Tesla and Carvana are both riddled with very material problems. Problems that are deep routed and very negative to the future value of each company. So why do they both stay up? The only reason I've come up with is that these "Wall Street guys" are making more money with TSLA and CVNA, UP versus DOWN. But that direction can change, and the WS guys will still make their money. When the WS guys are ready to move it down, it will move down. But not a moment before...