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Camera only FSD is working well for me
Stupid take.
lol I was expecting downvotes and arguments. When cameras become as capable as LiDAR I’ll eat my words, but that day isn’t coming any time soon.
That sounds more like a lidar supplier and government corruption deal. If a proven superior way exists and a company chooses not to use it, that is their prerogative; let the market phase out inferior products.
This will get brigade downvoted but it is true - Tesla set their goal for parity with a human driver instead of having it act like a superhuman driver. Dirt, water, fog, sunlight all regularly reduce my car’s capability in such a way it could be dangerous
I genuinely hope the government dictates safety standards, and not technology implementation. Thresholds and limits, not what technologies to use. As long as the implemented technology manages to meet those standards, it should be fine. Let the safety record & free market decide. To state you wish LiDAR was mandated, is akin to wishing all cars had a black box fitted years ago, and today, that black box wouldn’t be cloud based, or utilise SSD… they’d still be hard drive, or worse, tape based. You want the government to mandate the outcomes, not the implementation to get the outcome.
It's not a personal attack on you. Just the idea of legislation that is tied to a specific technology is a stupid take.
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Pay attention to the recent spate of accidents and deaths with LiDAR equipped vehicles in China.
Set everything aside: the govt shouldn’t put specific enabling technologies as part of a regulation or really anything. Govt can’t keep up with technology. They should just describe the required capabilities and process by which to be validate such compliance - not dictate the hardware based on 2025 tech
That’s fair
This conversation is literally the market sorting itself out, and people voicing their displeasure with the decision
LiDAR also struggles with dirt, water, and fog.
But with both you struggle far less. I’m arguing in favor of a combined system. 99.9% safe vs 99.9999% safe are quite different. Both are attainable, the difference is like a $25 sensor and a change in software direction
I don't know, FSD v13 is mind blowing and works well in real world conditions and has the most "miles" tested. LiDAR or a minimized version of it might be beneficial in the future but visual based AI got us farther than LiDAR for mass consumer
> When cameras become as capable as LiDAR I’ll eat my words Yeah because GM, Toyota, etc’s ADAS systems are way better than FSD /s
LIDAR has weather related detection issues as well. I am in the camp that HD RADAR needs to be there to back up vision because it will see through weather; in other words sensor fusion.
Loooooot of controversy around that video and just how honest it was. A number of people have tried to recreate that event and FSD prevented them from doing so. Nevermind that FSD wasn't even used for Rober's video, it was just basic autopilot.
Which sensor is $25?
Excellent. Now we need clear metrics and let manufacturers find ways to meet the bar.
Tesla owner aside - I often think about how much more efficient basic highway traffic would be if every car had the capabilities Tesla had. I haven’t “driven” to work in years.
Your edit of "phasing out cameras" is still a stupid take. Even if LiDAR is amazing, it's completely useless without working vision (eg camera). You can't identify objects without vision. You can't read road markers without vision, you can't read signs without vision, you can't see color of traffic lights without vision. If you have to have working vision, then you don't need LiDAR.
You keep saying bs after bs, high brand are not required for nighttime FSD, EVEN IF that were true, newer cars have matrix headlights to avoid other cars
I don't think they should specify anything. Just set the metrics and let each manufacture figure out how to meet them. Requiring certain equipment just prevents innovation. Someday we will have something vastly superior to lidar. If lidar is required then there's no reason to push to make something better
I just did a multi-hour highway trip in a regular car. It was exhausting.
This is what any wording should actually say. Rather than mandate a specific sensor technology it should mandate a minimum number of sensors types. E.g. camera only would not qualify, Lidar only would not qualify. Etc. But looks at the current U.S government... Musk probably wrote these regs and staffed this new department himself.
And imagine if every car could also talk to each other. Tesla should at least develop this capability for their vehicles.
The standard already exists — [C2-V2X](https://www.qualcomm.com/products/automotive/c-v2x) — but it will take some time for widespread adoption.
I’ve driven across the country four times and I’m about to drive a fifth using Tesla FSD. It drives like a person. I never feel unsafe or worried or anything that everybody thinks that happens with self driving. We are way advanced, and I am glad there will be an agency that will monitor this which means that we will finally have companies that Know exactly what they need to do to get on the road and all the different cities with autonomous cars
Every Toyota and Honda comes standard with what’s essentially autopilot. Lane keep and adapter cruise control is pretty standard outside Tesla.
I have the Honda version and it is not even comparable to Tesla. Even the basic Tesla without FSD
Depends on what year you’re talking about. Autopilot 1.0 I had in 2014 is the same or better as current autopilot for highway and I even had lane change then. That was with mobileye and they run honda sensing. Keeping a car centers between two lines is a pretty established tech is all I’m saying.
Yeah I love when people say they have the same thing. Find out it just nudges them back in the lane. No guidance, visuals or anything
Cool. Now approve matrix lights...
You got it.
> And imagine if every car could also talk to each other. I can imagine how bad an idea this is, yeah EDIT: from a security perspective, not the general idea
My free HW4 upgrade for my FSD can't come soon enough. V12 was great and now I have V13 and it feels like 30 steps backwards. People with HW4 and V13 that I know love it.
Adaptive cruise control and lane keeping/centering are the minimum now for highway driving. Takes most of the stress out of dealing with there masses that perpetually in a hurry.
You should elaborate on that, generally speaking communication between machines/computers is better than an isolated unit in this context (or at least that’s what most of us think)
You have V13 on HW3?
Toyota sense 3.0 is pretty decent lol sure it won't do some sharp turns that Tesla can handle but not the same as previous where it ping pongs you in the lane.
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I've driven Toyota's version on an 800 mile round trip. It's not even close to autopilot, the lane keeping has a nasty habit of disengaging without any warning or audible alert so the car just gives up on a corner and the drives straight leading to some really scary moments. It works on very well marked roads, just, but if the lines are even a little hard to see then it gives up and you're on your own, not that you would know it unless you happen to notice that one of the blue lines on the blue display of the road is no longer thick.
And how secure do you think it's actually going to be?
Security
Depending on what you mean, it’s less secure to have no communication between cars
Yes, and I barely ever use it anymore because it is a terrible done attempt. V12 always felt so intuitive. The new system for choosing speed is just so frustrating I basically have to have my foot on the pedal the whole time anyway. But again, people I know with HW4 says their V13 in waaaaaay better than V12 even was.
This is a bad take. Government regulations should specify requirements, not design outputs. This principle applies even to medical devices with the FDA. It needs to say what the car does (drive safely) not how it does it. Lidar is an engineering solution to the depth mapping problem. Lidar doesn't automatically make a car autonomous or safe, nor is a car without it unsafe (no human driver uses lidar). If a safe autonomous vehicle can't be made without lidar, then let the engineers figure that out.
This is a more sensible requirement. Redundant sensors. I'm not sure if we'd necessarily need redundant *dissimilar* sensors, but at a minimum redundant sensors for critical functions (ex: forward looking cameras) seems reasonable.
Yeah given that the entire road system is designed to be used with bio cameras (eyes) and neural net (brain) the only *required* sensor ought to be cameras to read signs. The other requirements need to be around safety or maybe redundancy. If you can't safely engineer a system using only cameras then that's an engineering problem, not a regulatory one.
I think they already did? It’s part of the Spring update in the US at least.
Sorta. The US has stricter requirements for reaction times than the EU. So time will tell if they will operate as well as other vehicles elsewhere, or if a lot of the tech will be inactive/have reduced capabilities.
You don't have v13 on hw3.
Even normal cruise makes a huge difference, I can’t imagine ACC along with lane keeping. There’s no way I could ever go back if I drove a modern car.
They changed all the features to be V13 and them crammed V12 into that. It's V13 parading as V12 due to hardware limits. You can't change your features into being identical to V13 and then label it V12. It may *say* V12, but I had V12 - the new thing I have is all the V13 options (with V12 options no longer existing) and it works very poorly. I mean, you tell me what happened there... You can't just give someone a ferret, but *tell them* it's a cat and give them cat toys and cat food without a person being like... No, that's a ferret.
The part that confuses the hell out of me is why non-US vehicles were allowed to have less strict “safety standards” - what was that about?!
Better yet, imagine a convoy of vehicles that could share power and motor output. They could run autonomously and remain connected to the grid eliminating the inefficiency of heavy batteries. Their autonomous operation would make crashes and injuries impossible. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_Metro
What are you taking about? Exactly what V13 options does hw3 have? https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/2284/tesla-fsd-v1255-adds-end-to-end-highway-stack-tesla-teases-upcoming-features
That’s awesome. I’ve been talking more years how this should exist and be widespread. Fingers crossed it happens
I don’t think that’s true. Users will have physical access to the devices doing the communication. Can’t see there not being a massive attack vector for causing disruption to the road network. Just one example maybe. People will reverse engineer the communication stack and create “virtual” cars, broadcasting malicious messages to cars around them in order to cause disruption of traffic. This will probably be an esp32 with a battery thrown into some bush next to the road.
He didn't properly test fsd. Other videos have already come out debunking his video.
I want to be able to set my speed again on highways though. I just got back from a road trip and the latest full stack FSD update for highways is horrible. Used to be great on road trips: tap down on the stalk, set speed, supervise and maybe tell it to change lanes once in a while. Now it can’t pick a speed (or a lane) to save its life no matter which setting or speed I choose and regardless of the amount of traffic. It’s frustrating after years of road trip bliss that I have to step on the pedal every 15-30 seconds. For the first time in years I drove myself especially when highways with only a little traffic late at night because the wide ranging speed fluctuations were unbearable. You’d think that’s where FSD would perform the best!
I no longer have a Tesla due to needing more room (love the vehicles, just not enough space for the family), but I remember being frustrated by the phantom slow downs.
Would you agree that this is similar to how it's common for people to throw GPS jammers at random places on the street, making the GPS system entirely useless in all but the most desolate of areas?
That’s not really comparable though. Losing GPS is an inconvenience for everyday driving. I feel like the consequences of disrupting v2v communications will have a much bigger impact. FYI, I don’t think it would happen very much, like you said with GPS. I just think a network of user-accessible machines with a responsibility for human lives is a great idea.
The point I'm making is that it essentially *never* happens.
It's already there in 2025.14 for the US. [2025.14 Official Tesla Release Notes - Software Updates](https://www.notateslaapp.com/software-updates/version/2025.14/release-notes)
There’s definitely ways to stop that Like in your example it’s as easy as ensuring h ty e devices need a continuous line of communication, otherwise it would be disregarded That would probably be implemented just to avoid communicating with cars going in the opposite direction At the moment for example, we all have devices connected to the internet 24/7 and we don’t have mass attacks or security breaches at our homes, and the times we do it’s an informational leak and not a take over of our electronic devices Implementing security features similar to those already existing on our phones should be sufficient to prevent those types of incidents imo
This is huge
It *pretends* to have V13 options by having changed the options for speed and decision making on lanes to what V13 has. I've loved my vehicle for years and V12 was amazing. I'm not some troll. I'm giving my actual experience with how things changed and genuinely can't wait for the eventual free (for me) upgrade to HW4 that Elon has promised will happen even though it'll cost a lot to maintain those promises for Tesla.
Only if they were tuned to be faster. My car's response to accelerating when the car in front goes, etc. is very sluggish, which heavily worsens congestion (just like most brain-dead drivers behind the wheel). Traffic congestion happens because cars arrive at an area faster than they leave, so if cars would accelerate briskly as soon as they were able to congestion would improve. The current FSD tuning absolutely would not achieve that.
Not being able to set a speed drives me crazy. I keep two driver profiles, one with FSD active and one with it off. On longer highway drives, I'll switch to the "FSD off" profile so I can set a specific speed.
> The new system for choosing speed is just so frustrating I basically have to have my foot on the pedal the whole time anyway. Yup, very aggravating. Makes me use FSD much less than I might otherwise.
As I understood it, HW4 is incompatible with earlier cars. They might design HW5 (or HW6) to be compatible with cars that came with HW3. Whichever is easier to achieve.
> having changed the options for speed Those were first introduced in V12 so I have no idea why you say it is a V13 option.
> I haven’t “driven” to work in years. It never rained, got foggy, or snowed on your drive to work?
High Resolution Radar is needed for bad weather.
Not enough to fully shutdown the EAP. It limits speed but in bad conditions the traffic is anyhow.
You must be lucky to have avoided bad weather. My Tesla warns and disengages because it can't see. If it can't see it needs to disengage.
The dedicated spectrum for this was auctioned off for other uses a year or two ago
I don't know what to tell you. Anyone who has owned a HW3 vehicle with FSD for a few years keeps track of how it's changed because it impacts our lives every single day. I thought that the update I received that regressed the system and has frustrated me to where I barely use FSD was V13. You caused me to double check on the app and you were correct- it says it's still V12. What I'm saying is that it is V13 being mangled into HW that isn't capable of V13. V13 came out for HW4 vehicles. A few months later I got an update with V13 features and it's been bad ever since. To be fair, V12 was such a profound update that it is more akin to going back to the pre-Nvidia chip training days. V12 was the LLM of updates and then they shoved V13 into HW3 and called it a V12 update, so now instead of driving stupid, it's more like it's driving inebriated.
corruption. guess you've missed the news since the Biden EV subsidy.
I can adjust the speed in my CT. i have the off set speed at 40 percent .
Same. But does yours hold a consistent speed on the highway?
Depending if cars are ahead of me or if I am in hurry. Will go around slow cars
> It works on very well marked roads, just, but if the lines are even a little hard to see then it gives up and you're on your own This point alone is why autonomous driving is decades away from reality in most of the world.
Toyota's tech doesn't speak for the industry.
Yeah but if there are cars going 55 one lane over (especially in the evening) and you are going 65, will it slow down to like 57 to pass? Mine does that and it’s so frustrating. Mine also mindlessly changes speeds on freeways when no one else is around.
Get out here with that shit
Oh that’s a great idea!!!
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