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Cybertruck is new. model 3 just refreshed. Model Y refreshed. S and X are now 4 years old. It’s funny how things like this have “researchers”
Have they released any new models that appeal to the masses? The CT doesn’t. And, won’t. Ever. The 3 isn’t a new model. To the average consumer, the changes aren’t drastic enough. It’s just a refresh. The Y wasn’t refreshed in 2024. The S and X aren’t new, like you mentioned.
Ikr, you should be running Tesla !!
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Funny you say that eventho the CT was the 5th most sold EV in 2024.
15 billion on a market value of 1.3 trillion.. wow..
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Luckily it's us shareholders who decide how much the company is really worth, and not just a bunch of random lefty redditors (adm!ns have pushed tons of righties off the site these past 5 years, making discourse mostly one sided). TSLA has approximately doubled compared to this time last year and the latest incident has barely made a dent. FSD will still be a game changer and Elon is pushing that like crazy.
Of course, Lora Kolodny. She’s been producing negatively biased Tesla headlines for years. Garbage article Brand value is bullshit. Subjective opinion created by a third party «research firm» no one’s ever heard of This is not journalism it’s fraud
Worldwide or just in the US?
Is it for sale outside the US?
How many of the “million plus” preorders did it sell?
what's next when tesla jumps up 10%? stupid headline. Tesla is an extremely volatile stock, it can be mutiple reasons or no reasons for the up and down.
This article is why I take anything I see related to Tesla with a massive grain of salt. Half the crap posted about Tesla on reddit is misleading at best or complete bullshit.
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Trillion*
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Model Y is the best selling car in the world for 2024. Not just the best selling electric car, but the best selling car period. Tesla’s lead is huge and growing. If any other carmaker did that, they’d be in la la land. How did the other car makers fare in net worth. Is Tesla now just a whole lot more valuable than all other car makers put together, or just moderately more value than all of them put together?
The most worrisome issue IMO is what's coming down the pipeline, or lack thereof. No reported replacement to the S/X platform. No Roadster. Model 3 and Y have been refreshed but sales aren't really growing there anymore. CT is here but will never be a mass market vehicle. It's only the RoboTaxi and that has a huge number of question marks on it.
Canada. Yes
Oh it’s Lora lol nuff said
I assume that’s cuz Canada’s auto standards are similar to ours. I thought CT wasn’t gonna get approved in Europe/Asia/etc…?
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Yeah, too long. Here in Italy even a simple Golf is large for our cities.
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The hate for Tesla and musk makes 99% of Tesla news stories just complete BS
The lines up is stale, especially for the common consumers.
>Model Y is the best selling car in the world for 2024. Not just the best selling electric car, but the best selling car period. Tesla has only 2 mass-produced models sold in all markets. There is model Y and model 3 and that's why Model Y is the best seller, because Tesla doesn't have anything else and even its market share is also decreasing in its own segment. >Tesla’s lead is huge and growing. What are you talking about? Tesla is losing market share to other manufacturers every single day. Don't you remember the time when Tesla sold the most electric cars in every market? Today, Tesla is losing to VW Group in the EU and BYD in Asia, only in its home market of North America is it still the undisputed number one. And especially losing to VW in the EU is a pity when you consider how much trouble VW's software side is in at the moment.
3 refresh was relatively minor, and didn’t come with any major headlining new features like a total redesign would. Same batteries, charging speed, and the range is in the same range (slightly lower on paper, actually). S/X were refreshed 4 years ago, which is about the standard age of a “facelift” in the industry. Add to that that they still largely look the same since 2016, with the X not having changed at all except for extremely minor differences, since its launch. These are the things the average customer sees. They’re not hyper attended to Tesla to know “omg the texture of the center console in the Model Y changed between 2021 and 2022. Midnight silver vs Stealth gray it’s wholly new!!” Tesla’s lineup IS stale to the average consumer. The Y’s refresh was JUST announced, of course it wouldn’t be included in this research.
Another banger from Lara Kolodny. They refreshed both of their flagship cash cow models and the stock price doubled, achieved CT profitability, cut costs further, and released FSD 13 which is IMO the best piece of software ever made in human history oh but muh brand value.
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merciful quaint roll chop retire squeeze hospital school quicksand work *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev/home)*
media narrative of: Tesla Killer/Tesla competition coming & Hybrid is the future is over-now what?????
Agree completely. I’m only on Reddit for the Sailing forums and some miscellaneous stuff. My feed is inundated with Trumpelon hate. It’s so annoying.
Red meat for reddit.
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>Model Y is the best selling car in the world for 2024. Not just the best selling electric car, but the best selling car period. Tesla’s lead is huge and growing. If any other carmaker did that, they’d be in la la land. Didn't the Toyota Corolla claim that for 2024? Model Y was best seller in 2023
User owned cars are not the solution. Self driving is. Yesterday I drove 540 miles with 0 interventions. That’s on 13.2.2. Another version is already rolling out and at the pace of improvement, I think Uber/Tesla is the logical goal. Far higher market opportunity when you make ownership like sons on Spotify. Have it when you want.
You are confusing stock values with Brand value.
“Tesla’s lead is huge and growing” I really do feel like people are beginning to reconsider them just based off of the association with Elon. A lot of people I know have asked me how do I feel about Elon’s actions as a Tesla owner. Another guy I knew traded it in towards a Mach E so he wouldn’t be associated with them anymore. They have a branding issue that is only getting worse.
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The CT is just the X rehashed, went too far and resulted in an over complicated expensive vehicle which diminishes its market chance. The TMY has been selling just fine but it can be expected a lot of fence sitters will step up when the new revised version is available. I just look at it this way, government incentives are drying up world wide as there are two camps of thought here, the first being that EVs are not ready to take over the vehicle market and the second being that many are upset that wealthy people have their expensive new cars subsidized while there are many who need help with every day life who are not being, well, helped. I am really hoping Tesla has a true lower cost EV coming that isn't just a stripped down TMY or TM3. There is a lot of desire for something closer to 30k than the market is offering. The issue is the claim that the Tesla "Brand Value" has lot X,Y,or Z, amount, is ridiculous as this is merely another company who has their own internal set of metrics by which they judge a company's value through surveys and more.
Well its based on a third party's internal metrics which range from how they judge surveys, third party deals, the company's profitability, and more. In other words without knowledge of how each segment of the score is weighted and determined their judgment of Tesla's or any other company's value is suspect and frankly not worth worrying about. Given the recent run up in stock value its clear the market does not agree let alone the fact this rating group doesn't look at the entire Tesla product line which just isn't cars
> Funny you say that eventho the CT was the 5th most sold EV in 2024. In US only
And I think the 3/Y sales in Europe are only going to get worse, requiring deeper price cuts as demand levers. The refreshed Y really doesn't provide anything compelling for those hanging on to an existing one, especially with the loss of the drive stalk, and having seen standard Autopilot overtaken by VW and others. Add to that the removal of the US subsidies, and Tesla really doesn't need to expand manufacturing capacity, and as far as Optimus goes, I really don't think they're going to the market lead by the time it is a mass market product.
I mean that's where it's sold lol
Woops, fixed!
Enough to become the 5th most sold EV in 2024 and it wasn't even for sale all year. That's really good for a 100k car.
Yeah, it's all made up. They gloss over the fact that Tesla sold every car they made in 2024. The only thing was they made very slightly less cars because they had some down time for the refresh model 3 transition. This year we'll see the same for the Y, then it'll be acceleration of manufacturing going forward, plus they will be starting production of a new model that we haven't even seen yet \*this year\*. Not to mention the semi factory is now enclosed, meaning they're nearing production at that new facility as well. Not even counting the energy sector acceleration that is occurring simultaneously. For buyers this also likely means anyone who buys a 3/Y this year is going to be sad when the price drops significantly in the next year or two as supply increases greatly.
>Half the crap posted ~~about Tesla~~ on reddit is misleading at best or complete bullshit. FTFY
I don't know how you classify Rednecks but this is absolutely not something you'd see a Redneck drive. And the vast majority of what most consider "redneck" couldn't afford a 100k truck. I really wonder the ceiling on how many of these will be sold.
Love how they will roll out "aging lineup" lol. Name one other manufacturer that continuously updates their cars like Tesla does. Legacy manufacturers roll out a car and then keep it static until the next changeover which is years and years away and often it's just sheet metal changes (looking at you Toyota).
Yes, but the original commenter was right, it wont appeal to masses like Y or 3. It is a one market niche (North America).
It has a quieter, more comfortable ride. And they made a ton of little improvements that make it overall more pleasant on a day-to-day basis. The level of change is typical for a "refresh" that isn't a "redesign".
I disagree with you on “user-owned cars”, but I agree with you on how the FSD software is really well-developed now.
LMAO it's so embarrassing to author these. Just wow
idiots then.
What a political hit job is post end this stupid article is what a shocker that a came out along with hundreds more like this. This whole site has gone down the drain.
A refesh/facelift doesnt move the needle. There is a reason any carplatform by the legacy builders gets a little spruce up after 3/4 years before are completely new product is lauched. Tesla's has never ever build a 2nd gen of their vehicle. It's all tired and stale with a bit of makeup. The S/X are absolutely dinosaurs, you really gotta step in a model S/X competitor and have a good look and feel around. you'll notice the world moved on and Tesla is stuck in the past when it comes to many things. Yap about batteries or efficiency all you want, there is much more to a vehicle.
I was ready to quit Reddit when every sub was crying to boycott X links and impossible to escape their virtue signaling. It’s important to note that Reddit was removing posts/comments that defended Elon saying he wasn’t doing THE gesture. Reddit’s hive mind is becoming too radicalized.
Their software update cycle is second to none. Their hardware update cycle is literally non existent. Highland and juniper are facelifts, not worthy of being classified as a next generation product.
They make five models. Their top seller (Y) has been in need of a refresh for some time. It's getting one. Their second-best seller is a sedan, and sedans don't sell as well in some places like North America. Their luxury offerings, the S and X, are getting more and more dated. The X is an issue because, broadly, it still looks like a late 2010's crossover and not a true SUV. Big crossovers aren't nearly as popular as they were five years ago. The S is a problem because, though it looks good, it hasn't had a full redesign since 2012. It's just starting to look dated, even with the Palladium refresh. Their truck is the Cybertruck which has incredibly polarizing styling and is getting the 'douchebag mobile' stigma like the early Prius did. Trucks are a huge market, but it'll be hard to displace ICE trucks with such a polarizing design. So, yeah, Tesla's gonna take a hit, but the new Y is going to sell like crazy and a seriously overhauled S and X could do much better than they're doing if Tesla decides to do it.
Researchers also claims people just want faster horses 🐎
I came to that same conclusion after getting my Model Y and the first recall (for me) came. I was reading the popular media coverage of it and none of the stories mentioned it was a software update! Pretty big exclusion.
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“Musk is an idiot and is crashing Tesla brand value because he doesn’t know how to run a car company” Also “Musk is too rich he doesn’t deserve so much money”
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Aging lineup? The 3 and y got updates the cybertruck is new.
As an investor I see idle factories. They may have sold every car they made but they have the capacity to sell more than they've been selling this year. There's a lack of demand, whether its because of Musk, the economy, or just the demand for EVs isn't there. Something's off.
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Do you really think many people are going to eschew a $500/mo car payment to pay probably twice as much to be driven around in a shared car they don't own?
The Model 3 was and continues to be the gold stdard for EV sedan. Most redesigns don't have some headlining feature. What's the headlining feature of the new Hyundai Palisade have? Companies just say 'all new' and it looks a bit different. The Model 3 has a new interior, is more efficient, new front and rear end, better sound deadening, better speakers, etc.
I disagree, the production drop was smaller than I expected for the transition period for model 3 actually. And based on the transition of the Y going worldwide simultaneously the Y will be even less than I expected for that transition. Main reason being, the transition period is being held in the slower sales season so that full speed production is set in stone world wide come 4th quarter, which is Tesla's best quarter generally. So not only will the Y be going full speed, but the new car that we haven't seen yet will also be ramping up and the semi truck will as well during the same 3rd/4th quarter 2025. Tesla appears to be lining things up nicely this year.
Toyota’s and Lexus’s often get mid cycle updates between redesigns, it’s not unique to Tesla. Tesla does lead the industry in rattles and squeaks off the lot though
This is the thing. Aging compared to what? Tesla is still miles ahead of Audi, BMW and pretty much all the other legacy producers when it comes to software.
Apple has been making the same phone for pretty much ten years now - it's a myth invented by legacy auto manufacturers that consumers want a major refresh every x amount of time (this is how cars got fins in the 60s and classic designs were dumped for no reason only to be replaced with something larger and fugly) pure bullshit. Look at high end audio gear also.
The model 3 could keep the same basic design as it has today for the next 10 years and still look awesome - classic good design has a Lindsy quality
When will it come out of beta?
It’s more of a mid life crisis car than a reckneck car. For the guys who like to wear Carhatt and workwear to their WFH programming gig.
Who gives a crap if a lineup is “aging”. The whole concept is artificial anyway to get people to buy the same cars over and over again with slightly different panelling.
Which is why it's getting upvoted I suppose?
Agreed.
You haven’t heard of Uber have you? Or perhaps Spotify making music streaming the new normal?
"Brand Value" is a squishy term. We'll see if the new Model Y has lost brand value.
I use Uber when I travel, but often rent a car if I'm going to be there for some time. I can't imagine always needing to call an uber to go everywhere. The USA is just set up for getting into your car and going places.
The software update process is a game changer. But let’s be honest. The Model Y being sold a week ago was virtually identical to the one I bought in 2020. _5 years ago._ The X and S are mostly abandoned. The lineup is aging. It’s a fair criticism.
To be fair: Many legacy car manufacturers do the same in the hardware department and continuously call it a next gen product each time.
Yeah I don’t really understand why people are saying it’s just a “minor” refresh. I’ve owned pre highland and highland and it’s a massive difference. So what if they kept the same side panels? The new Toyota Camry also kept the same middle panels and everyone is still calling it the next generation.
I don't disagree or agree with the content of the article. But remember this is a completely subjective analysis. It's based on someone's estimates. It's not fact. Also, decent chance the placement of the article is being paid for by the agency that did the study.
Very true
I'm here for the puppy videos.
They call it a mid cycle refresh, sometimes they'll designate it a 0.5 gen. A full next gen vehicle consists of major chassis updates which necessitates a new body design and a new interior.
From an "eye" perspective, sure the Y today is the same as the Y as when it was launched. But why do some folks think that is a bad thing? Classic design has somehow been undermined by legacy auto makers to gaslight the public into thinking the design has "aged" - this is only true when the original design was shite to begin with (Take a peek at the Mustang II from 1978 to see a perfect example). Good design is nearly fucking timeless. X and S should have been abandoned as they served what they were intended to do (lookup the Tesla "secret" Master Plan) and have enabled the company as we have it today (which was a miracle really considering the state of the EV market in the US and the absolute crap EVs we had back in 2012 when launched). I walked by a BMW today and did a double take at the how stupidly large the grille and kidney logo have become; Tesla doesnt need that kind of bullshit change for change sake
Tesla has definitely lost some luster. The cybertruck was supposed to be a hit, for the Y, nothing is guaranteed. It may be a great vehicle, but more than musks reputation, cost will be the deciding factor. With the price change games Tesla has done in the past, makes one wonder if it will sell well.
😂
I'm here for that and answers to oddly specific problems. Or recommendations when I can't think of anything to watch. Lol
she wrote an article about this source https://brandfinance.com/press-releases/tesla-drops-elon-musk-controversies-shake-up-automotive-brand-hierarchy
The Tesla Model Y became the best selling car IN THE WORLD... I kinda doubt Tesla is struggling.
cuz it was a 100k+ vehicle? and now 80k? name one veheicle that's for the masses over 80k. Anywhere in the world. The lower the price of the cybertruck get, the more buyers, really simple.
Elon Musk has been incredibly damaging to the brand. He did it well, but now that he’s gone off the deep end and started dismantling the political structure around the world, he needs to stop being the face of Tesla for it to recover. I have been advocating for this man for over a decade now and I cannot do it any longer. His erratic behavior, nonstop juvenile tweeting, and big mouth has completely voided any rationale Boston’s democrats and independents had for buying these cars. Friends are constantly trying to get me to sell my shares and move to Lucid, Rivian, and any number of inferior import EVs.
90% of stuff posted.
>Brand Finance calculates the values of brands in its rankings using the Royalty Relief approach – a brand valuation method compliant with the industry standards set in ISO 10668. It involves **estimating the** ***likely*** **future revenues that are attributable to a brand by calculating a royalty rate that** ***would be*** **charged for its use**, to arrive at a ‘brand value’ understood as a net economic benefit that a brand owner would achieve by licensing the brand in the open market. Like i said, it's complete and utter bullshit. Notice the words "likely" and "would be", which imply hypotheticals based entirely on their made up guesswork. Furthermore: >The Relief From Royalty Valuation Method is a particularly common method, whereby the value of an intangible asset is determined with reference to the value of the hypothetical royalty payments that would be saved by owning the subject asset instead of licensing the subject asset >source: [https://www.google.com/search?q=Royalty+Relief+approach&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8](https://www.google.com/search?q=Royalty+Relief+approach&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) So, first of all Tesla owns its brand name. Therefore, there is no way for Tesla to save money by owning its brand name versus licensing it. So the Royalty Relief method doesn't actually work in determining the brand value of Tesla. Second, the premise Brand Finance describes itself is illogical. Not only does their description of Royalty Relief valuation conflict with the top google search result (from Groves & Partners), but Tesla will never "license" their brand name to another car company. That is simply never going to happen. Third, this method is for valuing *intangible* assets exclusively. But Tesla's brand value isn't derived from the brand name but from the physical things they produce - their cars, megapacks, etc. Tesla's brand value is inextricable from the physical qualities of its products like their top safety ratings, range, price, cost of production, etc. Those reasons are why Tesla's products are competitive, not the brand name. If you were to put Tesla's brand name on a Ford Mustang, it wouldn't help it sell any better because it wouldn't be a better car, it wouldn't suddenly gain more range, charge faster, or have lower COGS. And even if Tesla were willing to license its brand, the brand name is only worth what other automakers would be willing to pay for it. And how do these people know how much money other companies would be willing to pay to license Tesla's brand name? Did they ask them? I doubt it. The answer is they don't. Hell, even other auto companies don't know what it's worth - because they've probably never even thought about it, because it's not worth thinking about, because it's never going to happen. These numbers are works of pure fiction dressed up with fake fancy formulas to trick stupid gullible people into believing they're real.
Aging = old and tired. Their competition comes out with new designs every couple years. It takes Tesla a decade to do anything and that’s only because Chinese EV’s are crushing them in their largest volume important market.
But they aren’t tired. The refreshes are recent-ish and most electric competitors in their main price segment (3/Y) are worse. And again… software wise they still beat them. I haven’t looked at BYD for a while but def ahead of them 2 years ago. Well ahead of Audi/VW, Ford etc.
software updates yea, but the actual vehicle nah. its already old and tiring. What tesla considers an entirely new vehicle Juniper, highland, etc, is basically a true refresh in the automotive industry. Basically SAME EVERYTHING and update the front and rear bumper/lights and interior updates. Every legacy car maker has been doing so for decades. Tesla has no true 3 row SUV. The X is dated AF and laughable to consider as a real 3 row suv contender with the likes of rivian and Kia EV9 and the upcoming ioniq 9 or whatever its called and the many ICE/ 3 row suvs. Ive come across many Tesla owners who are loyal but outgrow the 3 and Y as they need a real 3 row and their sentiments about the X is the same as I said so they buy a different brand. Same with the S, just refreshed but already dated. In a crucial time where Kia/hyundai/rivian are ramping up, they are showing tesla's short comings. Now with supercharger access too. Tesla obviously thinks they can follow the apple formula and just do the very little assuming their fanbase will still support them, but we arent dealing with $1000 phones, but $40-50-60K+ cars and everyone wont just upgrade for small changes.
The problem with abandoning S and X is Tesla should be filling up every market segment not abandoning market segments because their initial design cannot take advantage of the scale volume prices of later model 3/Y. Tesla should be filling every hole leaving legacy no place left to hide. Find every bread and butter legacy auto and make one to compete. BMW makes 1 Serices, 3 Series, 4 Series, 5 Series and 7 Series in cars as well as X1,X3, X5 and X7 SUVs. Mercedes and Audi have similar models. Create SUVs for conservatives that don’t want the Cybertruck or Model X. Throw in station wagons, minivans, two door sports cars and hatch backs so there is no market segment for legacy to hide in.
It's hard to think that anyone, Tesla themselves, thought that the CT would be a mass market vehicle. If not mass market, what was the point? Because there had to be a point. We know it allowed them to create some new manufacturing processes that will be used heavily in new products, like steer-by-wire, which is integral to the Robotaxi. It feels like there's a much more complicated story at play that's just harder to discern over the short term.
Literally not true. It's unheard of for a legacy auto maker to keep a car's wheelbase/body style past 7 MAYBE 8 years. The Model S has a now 12 to 13 year old design and the X isn't far behind. Cybertruck is very novel (even if you don't like it) so I will give them credit there. I also think the new Model Y refresh is the best general use EV on the market but that doesn't change the fact that nearly half of Tesla's lineup is ~10+ Years old.
Exactly. They need a $25k sedan, a minivan, an SUV, and a workhorse pickup. Not a low polygon silver El Camino and a hatchback taxi.
>Their hardware update cycle is literally non existent. In terms of general shape and sheet metal, that is accurate, but internal components for Model 3 and Model Y have changed a lot since each product was introduced. The Model 3 in 2017 didn't have a heat pump, used nVidia's DrivePX platform for Autopilot/FSD, and I believe an Intel Atom system for the MCU. Today's Model 3 is vastly different: new suspension, different interior, HW4 AP/FSD platform, Ryzen for MCU, acoustic glass all around. It's built better, quicker, more efficient, far more comfortable in ride quality, and has much less interior noise than the original. It is true that many customers do want something that looks very different than an outgoing model. Losing some of those customers is a tradeoff that Tesla appears willing to make.
Not really, i love tesla, but he genuinely does cringe shit. I really just want engineering and tech stuff from him, its really annoying seeing all his time as of late with political pandering
If only they made a semi normal pickup. It would sell like crazy.
Tesla has a very different approach. This is similar to Steve Jobs coming back to Apple as CEO in 1997 and killing 75% of their product line. All of those variations produce expensive complexity. Tesla is laser focused on driving the cost down and doing it across the minimum product set required (this means ignoring low volume segments of the market). They are coming out with less expensive models; this was disclosed at the last quarterly conference call. We will likely see this realized with a low cost 3 and Y rather than something altogether new. I do think they made a mistake with the design of the Cybertruck; the tech you can't see inside of it is awesome but think they would have been much better off going with a less polarizing look. If they had done this they could have started to take a chunk out of gas powered F-150 sales.
Soooo… 3.5%?
I think the beauty in what tesla's doing is honing the iterative processes of manufacturing while increasing tech capability. Cheaper, better, autos that outperform the rest en masse. They're leagues ahead in those places.
The low # of models is what has allowed Tesla to be actually profitable. Unlike these other morons attempting to make lots of models, all of which don't make any money. New model coming this year, they are going to be fine.
>Plans for new vehicles, including more affordable models, remain on track for start of production in the first half of 2025. These vehicles will utilize aspects of the next generation platform as well as aspects of our current platforms and will be able to be produced on the same manufacturing lines as our current vehicle line-up. >This approach will result in achieving less cost reduction than previously expected but enables us to prudently grow our vehicle volumes in a more capex efficient manner during uncertain times. This should help us fully utilize our current expected maximum capacity of close to three million vehicles, enabling more than 50% growth over 2023 production before investing in new manufacturing lines. Our purpose-built Robotaxi product will continue to pursue a revolutionary “unboxed” manufacturing strategy. What part of that from the 2024 Q3 financial report is unclear? We have new more affordable models coming in the first half of this year. This is separate from the new Model Y refresh and the Robotaxi.
He’s saying the hate for elon makes a lot of tesla news bs. But he’s not saying that the hate for elon is bs
It’s a media feeding frenzy. There is a huge market for “Tesla is failing” clickbait. The articles are often junk and maybe even AI written. This stuff is posted on like 7-10 huge subreddits per day and gets thousands of likes probably millions of clickthroughs. What I don’t get is how actual people have the time to comment the same dumb comments on the same dumb AI generated articles day in and day out. They have to be bots.
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The model S is a fucking grandparent.
Yeah the S and X aren't competitive in the market, as is. The S is E-Class money. And those buyers aren't M3 buyers.
Everything MSM and Reddit says nowadays are lies. They are losing relevancy for a reason. There's a reason they used "...researchers found" in the headline. It gives these consultants an appearance of credibility. Then you learn more about the author and it begins to make sense. She's a smear artist aIt's pure evil lol. I'm not even a fan of Musk after the H-1B issue, but none of this is real.
Tesla has become the most basic car you can own
The gas BMW 5 Series has had *three* full generation changes since the Model S popped on the scene, along with its many variations (wagon, etc.) and at the rate Tesla is going the *Neue Klasse* iteration may be out before the S gets a full new platform. There's a reason the S ride sucks and it's because the thing crossed the prairie in the 1800s. I'm not even mentioning the i5 which is on the same 5 platform as the gas one. For Tesla, I don't think people really have a problem with the 'dash' tech, but do have problems with the lack of physical controls, etc. (stalks stalks stalks!). As an aside, BMW's *NK* era is looking good: https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/article/detail/T0447111EN/new-bmw-panoramic-idrive-revolutionises-vehicle-operation-visionary-technology-package-for-the-neue-klasse-celebrates-world-premiere-at-ces-2025?language=en
This comment is laughable. The S & X platform had its quinceañera last year.
Good cuz it probably will.
Chinese cars are growing in Europe and eating that market bite by bite (and are a great threat to VW group, etc.) and Tesla should fear a lot of that ingress there. The numbers look small now but that's a mirage. It's going to get *bad* for homegrown automobiles. US domestics will lose marketshare in Central and South America pretty much yesterday (not even including the US shooting its own foot here). Things are gonna hurt, including for Tesla.
I only ever hear these anecdotes on Reddit, which is very far left at this point. Every normal person I know buys cars based on price and features. They’re not chronically online so they have no idea what the CEO posts on X. For years Redditors have been arguing that Musk has irreversibly destroyed Tesla’s brand and “all of my friends and family will NEVER buy a Tesla now!” and for years Tesla sales grew steadily. The Venn diagram of reality and Reddit don’t even touch.
Oh my, Redneckistan is chock full of $70-100k trucks. And then we have to include the cost of portal axles and the truck nuts... (but for real, the average full size truck price in 2024 was over $65k.)
Uber is already a thing and it has not disrupted normal car usage a bit. It has stolen marketshare from normal taxis a bit but not much. And no one has yet explained how the self-driving taxi business could work in such a way that it would eliminate the need for private cars? Is there a depot somewhere where there are tens of thousands of self-driving taxis waiting to pick up morning commuters and then return to the depot to wait for the same people to return home from work. Then 90% of those cars are just waiting for a gig there in the pit for nothing, while 10% drive people to other everyday rides. That is such a stupid idea from a business point of view that only a person who buys an almost profitable huge social media site and then makes it significantly unprofitable, after that drives away the advertisers and then also drives away the normal users and replaces them with Russian bots would think is a good deal. Private car ownership exists precisely because the need for cars does not scale very well.
it's not the cost that will prevent it from being "for the masses" - it's the size and design. And it's too big (and too freakin' sharp) for a lot of markets' roads and literally can't fit.
Sure but… the S is not the focus of Tesla and hasn’t been for years. It’s not even available anymore in my market. There might be one at some point though. And the only Tesla without stalks is the 3 highland. It’s back for the new Y.
> the S is not the focus of Tesla and hasn’t been for years. Yeah, that's the problem. The 3 is too small for a lot of people, but I get it.
As for an EU perspective: if only they sold a small hatchback. It would sell like crazy.
Real answer is the lower end, not the higher one. Eating ICE production cars needs a design capable of being similarly priced but that requires all teh cost savings to come from the battery pack. No one wants a price-cut model 3 at a cost of 100 miles inrange. Real winner in mass EV production will be the one who produces a tesla's current capacity battery pack at 30% lower cost. That will be the man that truly changes the world.
Yes, lowering the selling price of the car helps its sales in the markets where the car is aimed, but it does not change the fact that it is a large impractical pickup truck aimed at the North American market. Mostly american niche. And it is true that a few will end up with collectors and American car enthusiasts around the world, but it is by no means a mass market car. Maybe small batch to biggest car market in world (China) but even there impractical pickup trucks are not a big thing. And then there are the markets where the car in question cannot even be taken legally because it does not meet pedestrian safety regulations and the car has steer by wire technology, which is not allowed everywhere.
Name an another model of car that gets an update more than every five years Most manufacturers do a facelift after 3 to 4 years and major updates are eight years. This is the normal cadence for cars
The Zeekr 001 in China has had three major updates in just an 18 month span! Note that I specifically called out the Chinese market as their biggest issue. Every manufacturer there does major updates every 1-2 years.
The stock is up 108% in the past year and hit an all time high in December, but yeah I mean the whole thing is just aging and shit. I wish I had 10 more shitty stocks like that to truly ruin my portfolio.
For the EU a van would sell like crazy. Pick up trucks aren't that popular here. I would say vans outsell trucks 10 to 1 in the UK. That's just me guestemating.
It really is a shame. I've made my opinions known best I can ([https://imgur.com/a/5P0joD7](https://imgur.com/a/5P0joD7)), but short of developing time travel or making the symbolic gesture to get rid of something I've already purchased (which is under strong consideration)... we really are at the whim of a madman.
>I really do feel like people *\[in my little private Reddit bubble\]* are beginning to reconsider them
Make a model 3 Station Wagon/Avant/Break, (as you wish to call it) Its not a HUGE modification but would sell very well here in Europe. Everyone loves their RS4 and RS6 [https://editorial.pxcrush.net/carsales/general/editorial/tesla-model-3-wagon-render-sugar-design-1-2.jpg?width=1024&height=682](https://editorial.pxcrush.net/carsales/general/editorial/tesla-model-3-wagon-render-sugar-design-1-2.jpg?width=1024&height=682)
>And no one has yet explained how the self-driving taxi business could work in such a way that it would eliminate the need for private cars? Then let me be the first. The idea is that you would set things up so a car is waiting for you at the place and the time you need it. If you want to always drive from home to work at 8 AM, then you would set it up so there is one waiting for you, every day, at 7:55 AM. Now, you could do this already today. The only problem is that it requires a driver, and that driver requires paying. When you grab a taxi, only a sliver of what you pay goes towards the car or gas. The vast majority goes to paying for the driver's time so he can make a living. While this will mean you are going to pay some sliver to make someone else a profit, it does mean that you don't have to screw around with insurance, a parking spot, car payments, maintenance, or anything else. Financially, you will probably break even, with the advantage that you also never actually have to drive yourself. So that is how it works on the user end of things. For the people with the cars, you will organize things more-or-less how the taxi industry organizes itself today. You will have a good idea of how many cars are needed in any particular area, and you will make sure your fleet is set up to handle it. Ideally, you want your cars rolling all the time, only stopping to recharge. And as your cars are self-driving, the entire road is potentially your "waiting area". You can have them waiting at whatever spot is convenient and nearby to the area you want to serve. I can get if this seems like too much for you. That is why you are not running your own business. How do I know you don't? Because if you did, you would have already figured this all out on your own. It's not all that new. So now somebody has explained it to you. Please revise your objections in the future.
I remember when people said that about the Y. Do you?
The new Y is a little more expensive than the old one so that might be just out of range for some. The only thing it’s missing from making the perfect car is a 360 view.
The Cybercab should have been the Model 2. That thing would break every other brand in Europe.
It looks like one of the newer Priuses.
They have made the front and back a little more aggressive but the profile is still the Y.
Aging lineup? They just refreshed 2 of their best selling cars…..
>The idea is that you would set things up so a car is waiting for you at the place and the time you need it. If you want to always drive from home to work at 8 AM, then you would set it up so there is one waiting for you, every day, at 7:55 AM. >Now, you could do this already today. The only problem is that it requires a driver, and that driver requires paying. When you grab a taxi, only a sliver of what you pay goes towards the car or gas. The vast majority goes to paying for the driver's time so he can make a living. >While this will mean you are going to pay some sliver to make someone else a profit, it does mean that you don't have to screw around with insurance, a parking spot, car payments, maintenance, or anything else. Financially, you will probably break even, with the advantage that you also never actually have to drive yourself. You just told why that would be nice for the consumer, but that was not the thing I asked for an explanation. >For the people with the cars, you will organize things more-or-less how the taxi industry organizes itself today. You will have a good idea of how many cars are needed in any particular area, and you will make sure your fleet is set up to handle it. Ideally, you want your cars rolling all the time, only stopping to recharge. And as your cars are self-driving, the entire road is potentially your "waiting area". You can have them waiting at whatever spot is convenient and nearby to the area you want to serve. But what is the business case where it is profitable while the number of cars in relation to the number of miles driven increases significantly. That is, since the problem is scaling the number of cars in relation to the miles driven at the same time, how is that solved and it has not been explained to me. >I can get if this seems like too much for you. That is why you are not running your own business. How do I know you don't? Because if you did, you would have already figured this all out on your own. It's not all that new. I do profitability calculations for my job and I'm also a businessman. I don't need any platitudes from empty-headed marketing people, I don't need Elon Musk-style empty hype, I need some explanation of how that business could work. The price of cars can be scaled down to a certain point, but not so low that you can keep them most of the time just waiting for the two consumption spikes of the day.
> I remember when people said that about the Y. Do you? I don't remember and I don't believe you. At least meaning the same thing. Because the Model Y is a crossover SUV, and if someone said that crossover SUVs don't sell much outside the US, that would be an absurd statement. Or even more absurd would be to claim that Model Y is not legal somewhere in the world. And those are the main arguments against the spread of cybertruck. It belongs to the car segment, which is mainly aimed only at the United States, and cybertruck is even illegal somewhere in the world. Model Y was released in a car category that was already very popular, i.e. it was an electric competitor to popular internal combustion engine SUVs such as VW T-Roc, Toyota (Yaris) Cross or even Renault Scenic. The Cybertruck was launched in a segment where it competes with cars like the Chevrolet Silverado or Ford's F-series trucks, a niche cars outside US.
I’ll say it again. If Model 3 was a hatchback it would outsell any other Tesla model, and likely every other EV- granted that Musk starts repairing his damage. His insane image is directly ruining Tesla investors.
Checkpoint
It really wouldn’t though. Electric trucks don’t sell well.
Have ya turned on the news lately though? It’s far outside of Reddit
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g43553191/bestselling-cars-2023/ the top 3 selling cars in the united states 2024 are the same size or similar to the cybertruck.... all pickup trucks. The difference between them and cybertruck? they start at half the price. Cybertruck were made to be sold mostly in the NA market.
cybertruck was targeted for NA only, the only place where pickup trucks are popular. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g43553191/bestselling-cars-2023/ Look at the top 10 cars sold in the US for 2024, it's like 70% pickup trucks. Over 2 millions a year, if the cybertruck started at a similar price as these pickups, it will do very well.
what prevents the cybetruck from selling high numbers is not look, it's price. And they are still ramping up production, prices will come down with the release of a RWD cybertruck.
The bottom line is that losers hate successful people.
It most likely will be, I work at Giga Texas and there’s been a few Cybercabs driving around with steering wheels, I’m assuming they’re testing for a new car on the same platform as the cybercab
For some reason, we call that an estate in the UK...I have no idea why. They are fairly popular here. The small SUV seems to be the most popular here... hence the Y selling very well
such an odd article. Worthless read.
Car ownership as it is currently constituted is basically your last paragraph. Granted, some people do drive all the time, but on the other hand a very large number of people do indeed own a car that does nothing except sit around waiting for two consumption spikes every day. If the economics work on the individual level then surely they can work on the commercial level.
>if someone said that crossover SUVs don't sell much outside the US, that would be an absurd statement Yes. I think that was my point.
You are completely wrong, Tesla's current valuation is 100% based on Musk being at the helm. If he were to step down, Tesla would become "just another" manufacturer. Just because your friends are telling you to sell your shares, means he should step down as CEO? give me a break dude lmao. it sounds like you aren't even listening to them which proves my point.
I think the price will come down. I think Tesla is capitalizing on the new model hype and starting it expensive. As the factory tools up, they'll drop the price. That's just my speculation, though. Sorry you aren't getting 360 view, though I find the view presented by the AP display to be all I ever need. My wife's car has the 360 view that I never use.
Lol, and they've never been mistakes in their reports. Like, where's the supposed Roadster mentioned in the 2020 report? There is zero chance of a new affordable model in 1H 2025. How do we know this for sure? Because there's no test mules seen in any frequency. For anything released, there's a systematic increase in public sightings because they gotta test the model in the real world.
> Yes. I think that was my point. Was that your point? Because you said "I remember when people said that about the Y. Do you?" When I said "it wont appeal to masses like Y or 3. It is a one market niche (North America" Because from that comment of yours, I get the impression that you would compare Cybertruck's situation to Model Y's situation. Although they are completely opposite.
They've gotta start selling it well below $65k then, which is the average for full size trucks. But ignoring price, it still doesn't fit sizewise everywhere it would need to. Full size trucks are fuckin' gigantic. If they sold a Chevy Luv ev style then god everybody would buy one once they shot Musk into the sun.
Huh? Tesla is doing just fine. If Elon wasn’t politically vocal, these articles wouldn’t even exist.
That's what everyone said, and it hasn't worked out for Ford.
> 5 years ago. So what? Toyota just updated the 4 runner after *15 years*.
> It's unheard of for a legacy auto maker to keep a car's wheelbase/body style past 7 MAYBE 8 years. Toyota 4Runner. Toyota Tacoma. Toyota Tundra. Toyota Sequoia. Jeep anything. Dodge Challenger. VW Bug. Nissan 370Z. Nissan Frontier. Mercedes G Wagon. The list goes on and on. Unless we are using different definitions of "unheard of", I'm going to go ahead and say you don't know what you're talking about.
You forgot the Lamborghini aventador and Pagani Huayra! Anyways....There are maybe 350-400 car models (all brands) on sale. You found maybe 20? Most of them niche models (had a nice chuckle watching you compare Model S/x to 370z or VW Bug) and all are part of a larger lineup of constantly updated cars (S/X are 40% of Tesla's models). Silly me, I thought Model S/X buyers were cross-shopping against the Mercedes E/S-Class, BMW 5/7 Series, and Audi A5/A7 (and all the SUV variants)—cars that are now on their third platform redesign. Meanwhile, I should have realized with your insight that they’re thinking, “I know this Model S design is 13 years old, but hey, the Dodge Challenger looks the same, so it’s fine!” I'll be more careful with my wording to not confuse you next time.
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This really has nothing to do with their market value tho. If you evaluate companies based on sales, Tesla only accounts for about 2% of sales worldwide. But if you go by Market Cap, they're over fucking 50% of the auto-sector's value. Certainly the business is proving to be one that can be successful, but eventually their business needs to either catch-up with their wild market evaluation, or market evaluation needs to come back down to Earth. It seems as though the latter is starting to happen. Musk is losing a lot of goodwill internationally and investors are reflecting that sentiment. Who knows what'll happen for sure, but Tesla could 10X their sales, and they're still massively overvalued.
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It’s a dwindling market in most EU countries, too. Tesla makes global cars. Well, at least stuff they can sell in the US. The Cybertruck ain’t global.
Eh. Don't want to get into an argument too much over something kinda silly but if you actually go to someplace that is redneck (like where I grew up) you are NOT seeing many 100k trucks outside of maybe the larger diesel work trucks.
> You found maybe 20? I just rattled off a few from the top of my head, because you stated: "Literally not true. It's unheard of for a legacy auto maker to keep a car's wheelbase/body style past 7 MAYBE 8 years." There are plenty more, I just felt like my point was made without the need to generate an exhaustive list.
>I just felt like my point was made without the need to generate an exhaustive list. Ah yes, the insightful point you were making about the 370z's upgrade cycle timeline in a thread discussing 40% of Tesla's lineup being 10+ years old. I’m more than happy to concede that if you take my comment literally, ignore the context of this thread about Tesla’s stagnating lineup, overlook my point about the realistic buying scenarios prospective Model S/X buyers face, and focus on winning some imaginary technicality points in an internet argument, then yes—you’re correct, and you win. (That’s why I said I’ll be more careful with my wording next time to not confuse you) When you’re ready to return to reality and have an adult conversation, I’ll be here.
It's the number 1 electric pickup. Why do you think they should have done something different?
Right. But all of Tesla’s products are the 4 Runner. Each line goes a very long time between substantial updates. It’s also more noticeable because they only have 5 models that get updated very infrequently. Toyota might update the visuals on their models every 3-5 years, but they have so many models that _something_ is always fresh and new. Tesla might go 3 years with not outward change in the product line
> I’m more than happy to concede that if you take my comment literally Well, seeing as you opened that comment with the sentence: "Literally not true.", it would be hard to not take the second sentence ( It's unheard of for a legacy auto maker to keep a car's wheelbase/body style past 7 MAYBE 8 years. ) as a literal statement. > When you’re ready to return to reality and have an adult conversation, I’ll be here. You were talking about *other* automakers. And were wrong. I don't know what else to add to this. You obviously did not realize that some vehicles have a much longer time between refreshes. I pointed it out.
Agreed. Ignoring Musk, the only thing I’d emphasize is the X needs a from scratch redesign. The wing doors don’t handle rain well and you can’t add a roof rack. The X has competition now, it’s just not good enough.
Electric trucks aren’t good for towing something with a lot of drag. But they are good at other things. Depends what you need.
its outrageous design is a gift and a curse and is widely thought of as a douchebag mobile, driven by people who crave attention. The premiums they sold for the first few months are gone and they are now taking big depreciation hits. I prefer an R1T all day.
going In circles here champ, being successful does not justify every shitty thing you do
Lol at this headline. Lol at repeating it.
Small, cheaper hatch would sell well in US too, but they don't want to do cheap.
What exactly are his horrible beliefs and morals?
Were you guessing when you used the word champ?
I’m currently unloading my shares progressively. And I will not by another Tesla as long as Musk is pushing far right agenda, especially in Europe. Yes Musk has an impact, and not a good one
congratulations brother, the market disagrees with you
What is he at the helm of? Tesla? Twitter? Neurolink? SpaceX? Doge? I wasn't aware that CEO of Tesla was a part time job. Ive owned a Tesla for 10 years and I love my car, but I absolutely would not buy one rolling off the line today. There's no one at the helm and it shows with the quality of the cars rolling off their line
Not really, Tesla sales dropped in 2024, in a rapidly growing EV market. Tesla should be killing it, but instead they are going backwards and losing significant market-share.
In EU, used vans are mostly bought by Moroccans with large families. Here, everyone wants SUVs.
That's what redditors said about iPhone mini and it's gone now
The stock is up 115% over the last 12 months…
Well I was also driving so I couldn’t take a picture, but there’s photos out from others you can look up that show “what might be a steering wheel or maybe just a shadow”. but there’s different angles, so come to your own opinion on that
I just saw a TikTok showing how Tesla is a major bubble.
True statement from 5(?) years ago: Electric cars don't sell well. Things change.
I’m sure they will but we’re not there yet. We need way more charging infrastructure to accommodate towing. Ironically, EV semis might be adopted first since routes and aero are more predictable, so companies will know what % of their fleet can be EV. A personal truck is a tougher sell since it’s likely going to be your only truck.
A 2 seater with steering wheel is not a small hatchback that Europeans would buy.
A facelift is not the same as a brand new model.
A facelift is not the same as a new generation.
I suspect Tesla owns much more of the full chain than other car makers. Much more than addressing components, they make the batteries, own the dealers, own the supercharger, etc... So for the competition market cap you need to add in much more than just the car makers. However your point still stands, I didn't know where the market cap is coming from. Even outside the US and China, companies like xpeng are looking the better option over the Y in places like Australia. If sales drop 20% in the next few years I don't see the market cap being this high unless it is all about the robots or their waymo competitor.
When you get into investing, you quickly realize that "profit margins" and "fundamentals" are much less important for actual stock prices, and what's really important is investor sentiment and who's controlling the money. If one day several major banks decide that EirHc enterprises is worth some major investment, well WOOHOO my stock options are now worth billions and with that comes a lot of power. But those banks can just as easily flip the switch the other way and take it away. A small time investor like me is just a pawn in the whole charade. Even if I had 5 to 10 million bucks laying around, that's peanuts on the Nasdaq & NYSE. It's been pretty widely known that TESLA has been over-inflated for a long time. And we just accept it because "investor sentiment". And when I say investor sentiment, with that kind of money, what it really is are banks are projecting EVs to be a game changer and are strongly investing in the world leader. But at some point they need to pull their money out and not be left holding the bag. As long as the industry still has unlocked potential, and as long as Tesla is still a world leader, and as long as they continue to have a good business, I don't see the stock imploding. But they could certainly drop 90% of their market value overnight and I don't think the stock would be underpriced.
Ford’s [read: legacy manufacturers] problem is at the dealership level. They don’t want to sell them because BEVs require less maintenance; where dealers make their money.
I rode in a Rivian this weekend. A friend recently bought it, choosing it over a Model X. I have to say, I was impressed. And while the price tag is higher, it definitely felt like it was a better designed vehicle. Tesla has some catching up to do there.
Model Y is best selling car in China, the world’s largest and most competitive car market. Is a Rivian as nice or nicer? Maybe but also 2x the cost and not reliable. For the money, Teslas seem to be the best car. Came to this conclusion as I didn’t want one as so common in SoCal. Test drove everything from Toyotas, Subarus to Volvos, BMWs, Audi and even Lucid. Ended up buying a Tesla
Tesla need to cook up a new face for the brand. Elon can do whatever the "tech king" or w/e his position is called somewhere where we don't see him and someone else, younger, nerdy, passionate does all presentations and announcements.
Coupes have such a limited market. We really need something like a Golf or similar from Tesla - something significantly shorter than the TMY
That reply doesn’t even make any coherent sense, get your bot account to try again
.. thats why cars are a horrible "investment", but it screws the buyer not the seller. it makes zero financial sense to run a fleet with like 5% load, commuting can not be profitable via cybercabs.
Why is the new Y going to sell like crazy? It’s an extremely minor facelift and small interior improvements.
"rEsEaRcHeRs FoUnD..." 🤣😅😂🤣😅😂 The researchers ----> TslaQ
The old Y sold great and now there's newer which means there's something for legacy Y owners to upgrade to if they're inclined.
After a less than steller quarter the stock is up to 405 in after hours trading.
With the national ev subsidy the model 3 was going for about 30k. Some states have additional subsidies that brought that down to 20-25k That sounds like every other car on the road and cheaper than most of the trucks
That grandparent is the fastest one on the planet for the price and his nickname is Plaid. He is the OG.
Well supposedly we’re making two new cheaper models this year, one of them the first half, then the other by end of year. Supposed to be a cheaper model 3 (nicknamed Model 2, or the cybercab platform car that’s been rumored for a few years) and a smaller model Y type vehicle (this one is alleged, nothing has been confirmed yet and I have no insider knowledge to provide)
It's the ugliest vehicle I've ever seen. The stainless steel always looks dirty and wavy. It just looks like it's falling apart. The ones that I've seen that were wrapped look way better
They make a semi
🤣🤣 unveiled in November 2017, it's been over 7 years and still not for sale. Now they are targeting 2026.
What was the semi? Did you not know hundreds have been delivered?
Tesla is gonna have to pin its hopes on selling huge amounts of cars in China and USA because the European market is gonna be dead to them. The U.S market is gonna be in deep trouble because of the owner of the company’s political antics is going to put off so many potential owners who actually have the means to purchase an EV and they will likely go with an alternative. Sales are going to continue to decline globally even if there is an uplift with the model Y refresh. Competitors are gonna catch up and Chinese EVs are going to make huge gains which can be seen already in Asia and in the medium term in parts of Europe
I don't think the batteries would take towing heavy weigh very well.
Families yes. But most tradespeople buy vans rather than pickups in western Europe at least. The few pickups you see tend to be driven by rich guys with more money than sense. Keeping your tools and deliveries dry is a priority in western Europe.
Just buy a Rivian
Tesla sales nosedive hard in Europe https://arstechnica.com/cars/2025/02/tesla-sales-plummet-in-the-uk-france-and-germany/?comments-page=1#comments
It's not major enough to reverse the declining market share.
Buyers have increasingly been disagreeing with that.
Scale is China’s true advantage. The is a saying (Wright’s Law?) that says something like doubling production reduces the price 10-15%. Considering China’s population is 4X the USA population, China automakers can lower costs by 30%. Unfortunately legacy automakers did not jump at this opportunity in China so never gained the scale to lower costs.
What is crazy is Tesla markets the same few models worldwide when every car company knows the EU is a different market than Montana and Texas. You are going to park a Cyber Truck in Paris?
The $6K price hike killed my 2024 Prius purchase.
How much can I sell my share of the brand value for? Oh, what's that? It's made up? Nevermind then.
From a European perspective, Tesla only make big cars. Model 3 is over 4,7 metres and is a sedan. They really need a compact model.
🤔
hahaha the stock goes back to the same price it was 3 months ago and people claim apocalypse
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