The Tesla Robotaxi is Confusing…

#[r/cybertruck](https://www.reddit.com/r/cybertruck/) is now private. If you are unable to find it, here is a link to it. As we are not a support sub, please make sure to use the proper resources if you have questions: [Official Tesla Support](https://www.tesla.com/support), [r/TeslaSupport](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaSupport/) | [r/TeslaLounge](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/) personal content | [Discord Live Chat](https://discord.gg/tesla) for anything. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/teslamotors) if you have any questions or concerns.*

TLDW?

Elon optimistic about timelines and pricing… skeptical about humanoid robots

MKBHD doesn't think Tesla will deliver on their timeline. The van will likely never come. No specs were given for the robo taxi. No plugin port, inefficient wireless charging not ideal.

It's actually mind-boggling. They made such a supposedly efficient lightweight electric vehicle, and it just proves they could make a Model 2 with the same ethos, but instead they're making a $30,000 car with no steering input and wireless only charging. Good Lord.

Can someone explain the economics of developing a bespoke robotaxi instead of just making a modified Model 3 with no steering wheel & pedals (or even a modular design where owners can add or remove those)? It seems crazy expensive to build a new car and the 3 cost would lower even more if they were being bought as taxi fleets. Plus you get 4 doors and potentially 5 passenger seating vs 2 which makes it more usable as a taxi. One less sku also means inventory allocation is that much easier so what gives? What's the upside to this?

It's only concepts of a plan

Ah yes. Well, Elon, pack it in. The guy that does unboxing videos says it won’t work.

Good but suspicious

I didn't feel confused by it.

They also had model Y and 3 doing the loop. IN other videos not shown on the stream the CAB can not only charge it self by auto parking on the pad it can park in a cleaning stall where robot arms can vacuum / clean the car. The VAST majority of taxi rides are 1 or 2 passengers it makes sense.

A $50/yr wallpaper membership is equally confusing, marques. Edit: looks like I hurt some small hearts.

Batteries are expensive. This just seems like a min-maxed way to keep the car as cheap as physically possible while still having the expensive battery.

No one wants to point out MKBHD is totally oblivious of the $80k-$7.5k CT configuration being available?

Unfortunately your question is moot. They don’t have fully autonomous driving, so…..

My thoughts exactly. Tesla’s advantage has been their manufacturing prowess and not playing to the year over year development cycle all the other car manufacturers play. Building another production line for an entirely different vehicle which may not have the demand they want it to is a huge gamble in comparison to retooling a section of a Model 3 line to include fewer parts. I honestly don’t know where Tesla is going to end up. The Cybertruck came out years late and 160% of projected cost. This past event had people dressed up as robots, two door robotaxi that no one believes will happen, and a futuristic bus thingy that will definitely not get built. Meanwhile Musk is inserting himself into a presidential election with offers to buy votes, manipulating social media to benefit his candidate, and spending time at racists political rallies instead of running his companies. I’m not saying Tesla is going to go bankrupt or implode or whatever. I just honestly have no idea how this plays out but I don’t feel like it will be the success story Elon spent 2005-2020 building it up to be.

That being somehow extremely closer to their promised price?

My guess is this is based on model 2 (or whatever the cheaper car will be)

Miles per kWh is going to be much, much better on the robotaxi. If.

He recently made a video on that, he admitted it wasn’t well planned.

Hold up, the robots last event are mostly tele-operated, not someone dressed up as a robot. You are spewing quite some bullshit here. I am sure you are not talking about the old dress up event a few years ago.

[deleted]

Because they expect to build many times as many of these taxis as 3’s. These are in no way “bespoke.”

Just a couple off the top of my head: * Material choices can be optimised for cost and production without needing to feel "premium". You could substitute materials in a separate SKU but that means having a separate supply chain and separate capital costs from injection moulding parts anyway. You also don't get optimizations. Eg, if you use a hard plastic for a door panel you don't need the same amount of fixing points whereas using a more soft fabric inlay you may need to support it in different ways. So the blank door has to have different fixing points to be able to support both types of inlays. That's just one material for one item. Think about all those things adding up. You also can make things much cheaper but less durable provided you have a service supply chain. Eg, imagine an interior door panel that falls off or discolors from UV after 3 years of use but can be snapped out and a new one snapped in in 30 seconds and you can order the part with 24 hour delivery. Would a consumer accept that? Probably not, would a mass ride sharing company accept it? Probably - they'll probably have a few consumables on site and their car gets checked at the end of every day. * Range anxiety for consumers vs robo taxi fleet will be different. Robo taxis can be optimised for the 200mi city runabout but the market has already spoken - 200mi cars just don't sell, most people want 300mi minimum. Even if you get a different SKU with less battery cells, you are still carrying around all the extra weight of a car chassis that can carry around a 300mi battery without the benefit. Think about that penalty over the life time of the car. You might need an extra 5% of battery capacity to carry around a larger chassis from weight, aero drag of skin friction of a longer car body plus material costs. The cost of a EV is directly correlated to the size of the battery, reducing battery size means a cheaper car. * Think about the complexity of second row of seats. You need a second screen in case the person sits in the back, you need seat heating/cooling, you need extra aircon ducts, a second set of openable windows, set of new doors plus hardware, airbags, airbag sensors, all the extra copper for wiring, the labour for running the wiring loom for all of the above. * Just looking at the cybercab - look at the view from the back especially, it's *really* small and narrow compared to even a model 3. Again, think of the parasitic drag over the life time of the car and the extra battery you need to lug around just to overcome the aerodynamic drag. If they can make the model 3 SR profitable at $35k (model 3 RWD is being sold at the equivalent of $32,000 in china) there is no doubt a dedicated cybercab, if it scales, can be made for sub $20k which means if it is sold at $25k that's a 25% gross margin. Noting that Porsche has a gross margin of 28%.

That, and he pointed out that when someone in crowd asked (yelled) about HW3, Elon responded “let’s not get nuanced”. Probably biggest takeaway from this video. I don’t think HW3 is getting unsupervised FSD :( I wanted to trade in my M3P for highland M3P, but prob going to wait until whatever hardware version delivers on FSD Unsupervised

Cyber taxi is only going to be $25k! ^(*steering wheel and pedals not included, self driving subscriptions starting at $8k)

The promised price is still far less than your 72.5K. So, what exactly is your point?

My point is for a leading tech reviewer such as MHBHD shouldn't make these rookie mistakes.

The VP said it would when interviewed on the street.

They abandoned the Model 2, and this is just that repurposed. It’s also vaporware, they can’t keep saying that FSD is “one to two years away” and have people not get outraged, so now they say “Robotaxi and Robovan are 1 to 2 years away” and then parade around teleoperated robots they try to pass off as AI. The whole thing is just to get marketing and attention, none of these are even remotely close to releasing.

The guy that with a single review sent Fisker into bankruptcy* Edit: from his side gig channel.

Based

Model 2 definitely isn’t coming in with automatic butterfly doors.

lol right. Cuz if he hadn’t reviewed them, they would have made it. Sound logic.

Tesla’s “one more things” is basically just concept vehicles, the robovan will be forgotten alongside the electric ATV and Roadster 2.0

You basically described my exact feelings. Im not an Elon Hater but the fact is a lot of his decisions lately at Tesla have been kind of weird. Full Self driving has been just around the corner for years. Now he unveils a brand new “driverless” car. Newsflash the car isnt the problem the software is. If this is so close then why are driverless Model 3s not driving around San Francisco like waymo.

They definitely had a dancer dressed up in A robot costume at one event. Found the video. https://youtu.be/TsNc4nEX3c4?si=R4wyrqlF-3vAsUjY

Fisker was om the verge before the review came out.

Oh great, not it’s only 2x the price

Why not? Also I wouldn't assume the either car has butterfly doors just because they demo'ed it.

Because then it won’t be lighter, more efficient, cheaper, or easier to manufacture (or maintain). Edit: your edit (entire second sentence) is a pretty damning comment on the entire product tbh).

I'd bet the model 2 comes out before the Cyber cab

Bruh, he is talking about the last event on 10 october, not that very old event a few years ago in this video. The october event uses tele operated robots

Then how do you explain the doors? Or the lack of charging port? Custom solutions that are not value engineering or serve to maximize range.

I wasn't defending the product. I actually think the model 2 will come out before any Cyber cab.

It's definitely not getting it, that hardware came out in 2019. The parameters these models have are growing exponentially and thus require more compute and memory. The HW3 cameras are also much worse, meaning less pixels/data to infer.

“Concepts of a plan”. 😅

1. robotaxis need to be able to shut their own doors without a human 2. robotaxis need to be able to charge themselves without a human

[deleted]

I’ve never had a taxi driver or uber drive shut ( or open) my door lmao why would I need a robot taxi to do so?

It’s still deceiving the way they presented those Optimus robots.

[deleted]

Does not mean it is right to say the robots are people playing dress up, because it means tesla has nailed the hardware of the robots.

[deleted]

An Optimus will be on the side of the road ready to push it shut

It’s a lie. I love Tesla but it’s a lie. It won’t happen. Not at that price point 🤣

The doors can still have a normal hinge and be motorized. You don’t have to create a complex, expensive and heavy new door mechanism to accomplish any of this. Even minivan style sliding doors would be a better solution than what they are proposing.

Of course it’s a lie. I’m not a fan of Tesla but want them to succeed on some of these technical challenges. It will eventually happen, but Tesla won’t be the one to do it.

[deleted]

Tell me you didn’t watch the video without telling me you didn’t watch the video

[removed]

I do too. I think they can do it. Elon likes to dream and sometimes he makes it happen.

> They abandoned the Model 2, and this is just that repurposed. They did not abandon model 2...

As jobs said (or something along these lines), shoehorning a mouse interface into a touch interface is the worst of both worlds.

What are you on about? I have the latest FSD and today it drove me over a hundred 100km across town and back and aside from parking, I didn't have to do anything EXCEPT adjust speed a few times. Not at all saying its perfect in every drive, but it's going very very good. Speed signs and lane selection can get solved. And then it would be nearly perfect... Oh, until the snow comes, there is that...

He has gotten so much wrong obey the years regarding Tesla. Even after owning several.

🤣

That's my thinking too. They're not even close to achieving Level 5 autonomy. How in the world do they think they'll be able to accomplish this within their stated timelines? Makes no sense to me.

Because money. If you're trying to make an affordable mass market car you don't add needless mechanical flourishes for style.

Could it be possible that the doors on the Robotaxi are cheaper and simpler than the automated door mechanism on say the Model X front doors. Without the exact engineering specs or costs of the mechanism we’re all just guessing. But the doors of the Model X have insane motor torque required for the very awkward moments acting on the hinges. Whereas the doors on the robotaxi are more akin to a motorised boot, with electronic struts helping with the lever arm and the weight of the door helping close the mechanism. My guess is that these doors are mechanically superior compared to standard 90° horizontal swinging doors.

My guess is it's different markets. This will not be as popular as a consumer car as the model 3 and Y. Rather, businesses will operate these as taxis in cities and the riders will mostly be people who do not own a car. With Model 3/Y, they are targeting car buyers. With Cybercab, they are targeting people in cities who don't own any cars at all. That is my guess anyway because like most people I'd rather own a Model 3.

Wouldn't that apply to both cars?

I tend to agree with this. He's so distracted that Tesla seems to have stagnated. Also, it sounds like he's actively diverting AI-related resources away from Tesla and into xAI because he can't fully control Tesla.

Yes

That's great, but I can't get through a drive with FSD without intervening at least once. And it doesn't learn from prior mistakes. I live in an urban area that's not super complicated.

One thing about the Lambo doors on the robocab is that it keeps the doors from blocking the rear-facing repeater cams when they are open. However it impedes the B-pillar cams.

I'm less arguing they'll both have fancy does and more arguing they'd have the SAME doors.

also, why would the model 2 be a 2 seater? makes no sense if it’s supposed the theoretically compete with other compact cars like a corolla

Agreed. Event the cab being a 2 seater is stupid. It has a massive trunk when an additional 2 seats that can also be used as storage is infinitely better. How many solo business travelers have 2-3 full-sized suitcases? Somebody had a post earlier talking about a family of 5 leaving dodger stadium (elons prediction for a lush green park area surrounding a sporting event) stating that you’ll need 3 cars to get a family of 5 home (with one riding alone lol). This adds to the traffic problem, not reduces it.

Same loser that thought selling iPhone wallpapers in 2024 was a good idea

Fisker was doomed before it launched.

[removed]

15~ years of manufacturing experience here. Essentially, it boils down to the BOM, or bill of material. You could run a shell of a Model 3 and rip everything out, sure. But that's going to require a bunch of Engineering effort that more or less could be pushed to a new car design entirely. Additionally, typically with long-term product development there a ton of lessons learned that teams want to deploy. With such a direct function of a car I'm sure there's a lot more going under the hood to make it all work than just a simple Model 3. Plus from a marketing perspective, it draws eyes. It's clear to me that there's a larger plan with the Robotaxi that goes beyond what folks think a car typically is. The less mass in the car, the less weight, less charge time, longer run time. When you scale it up to let's say a million+ cars, every % utilization is just straight cash. Because don't forget, they'll have the normie cars too for those who need it. Just like the different Uber tiers.

The CyberCab is the 2 for 1… Make 2 cars out of 1 battery pack. It will be way more efficient and be able to address more of the needs of the populace.

I think the idea is that Model 3s/Ys will still be able to join the Robotaxi network. So those vehicles will be available for when people need them. The majority of rideshare passengers are 1-2 people so a smaller, lighter vehicle to service this specific need is more efficient. Something else I read (possibly a previous comment on here) - they don't want to Osborne Effect the Model 3.

Just thought of another one - front seat passengers are clearly visible to the public. By not having a second row, you can't have people in the backseat away from the public eye doing who knows what in your car.

I love the ambitiousness of making these concepts, in a stale world I think it’s needed. Nothing wrong with dreaming, striving for better and lofty goals. I like the ideas. But yes, if they can’t make a model 3 cost 30k then how will they make a FSD vehicle cost that much? I want FSD to be realized but they’ve struggled with that. Perhaps the Lidar sensors need to comeback for this. I know it’s not great in terms of cost, but FSD won’t ever be good enough with just ‘vision’.

So a model 3 with $8k self driving is $50k. If this has to come with self driving at $30k then how is there really $20k in savings vs a M3 single motor? I just don’t see how they are saving that much money in this design unless they are shrinking their profit margin or they are going to make FSD a subscription instead of standard.

Might want to recalibrate

I actually was pondering this myself, so I went searching for some explanation as to why they might have chosen this route. Not sure 100%, but I feel like [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hanBjn55MI0) I came across, the guy makes some compelling arguments for things that likely make cybertaxi significantly less expensive to make than a model 3.

I understand a lot of people feel like the event was a lot of smoke and mirrors. But I find it pretty amazing that they actually unleashed 50 autonomous cars to drive around a bunch of humans, bicyclists, and people on cyber quads. it’s amazing that they can be this confident in their technology. FSD is here. People need to stop acting like it’s never getting here. Plenty of people are taking autonomous rides every day. This is going to happen and it’s going to be brilliant.

well it’d certainly be a much more realistic product to announce and produce than the things they have officially announced here

It charge wirelessly. Tesla can and do make minor changes to the design from unveiling to actual production so I imagine they could add charge port later on but it will add additional cost so maybe only for the version they are selling to public.

Sent who into bankruptcy?

[removed]

I’ve noticed nobody talk about the Model Ys that were driving around “autonomously” with the Robotaxis. Nobody wanted to get on them, but they were running with no driver. Has anyone checked what version of FSD it was claiming to have? The Ys and Robotaxi , if controlled by people it must of been a headache with so much crap happening around.

How will you park this shitty cab inside a garage or a nearby curb without a steering wheel

Tech reviewer yet makes comments on robotaxi viability without reviewing FSD12 😂

No shit

This guy is winning hard

this is way cheaper than a model 3. plastic body panels, half the battery size

If they're making the hinge in house either way, then is what is actually more expensive and more complicated with that door design? The hinge has been rotated so that if lifts, but this appears to be for packaging reasons so they can position the actuator more favourably.

The way the math adds up is that FSD will ultimately cost zero, and the Robotaxi accounts for this inevitable truth. Once Tesla can turn their entire fleet of cars into a profit center, there's no way they'll charge an up front fee for it. Everyone with a compatible car will be able to add it to the network, generating significant additional revenue for Tesla without any marginal cost.

I’m guessing the reason for the constant announcements is to boost stock?

I agree, $8k FSD option goes away. They start offering only as a monthly / annual subscription. So price difference of Robotaxi and M3 is $12k. Main differences is 2 v 5 seats, and M3 has supercharger access. Not sure who is really buying these robotaxi. Seems like it’s just for commercial fleets or Tesla. Maybe with regulatory approval they could allow children to go in it alone since there would be no way to drive it, I guess that’s a perk if so.

>I’m guessing the reason for the constant announcements is to boost stock? Ooof... https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-stock-sell-off-after-robotaxi-event-could-be-just-the-beginning-pros-warn-155630709.html

Fully agree. People forget, that most people choose to use public transportation not because they prefer riding in a team rather than a Tesla, but because it is cheaper. When I choose between a bus and a taxi I choose between price and convenience. If they can make a robotaxi much cheaper and only a little bit less convenient than owning a car, a lot of people will switch.

Automatic servo and hydraulic lift is gonna be more expensive than a bog standard door latch, regardless of whether you make it in house or not. That's just simple economies of scale and the fact that we've been making car doors that way since, like, the first one. Requires position and force sensors, along with other components that I can't think of off the top of my head necessary to make such a door function. Granted, I'm sure that they've gotten a lot better at the auto door thing with their experience from the model X, but you just can't vertically integrate your way out of it costing more. It simply needs more things to function than a regular door. Maybe they could shave some of the cost by moving things like speakers and window switches out of the door and into a more central location, but I doubt they'd be able to fully offset it.

I wish they hadn’t had the event. Personally I thought it was awesome to see the glimpse of what’s to come, but the event was clearly just made to satisfy all of the nerds (many in this thread) DEMANDING progress from Tesla. So they peel the curtain back a bit to excite people. Musk used to promise things way too aggressively. Now he’s much more realistic (often by not saying much at all) and people lose their shit. You can’t have it both ways. The company is developing ground breaking technology. It takes time.  You have to be dumb as a pile of bricks to think any of this stuff is “vaporware.”

It's gonna be years until a production version sees the light of day and arguably the car is more vaporware than product at this point, so yeah anything could change. But given that they haven't revealed basically anything about the "model 2", I'm curious what makes you say that

They have 4 different models available to carry a family of 5. This is for the 90% of  trips that are only 1 or 2 people.

[deleted]

4 seats is more expensive then 2 seats. They already have 4 cars that support it. Adding another does nothing. They already have stated for years they plan to remove the steering wheel from all there vehicles.

I think the answer is obvious, this Cybercab will cost WAY less than the Model 3 to manufacture, probably less than half the price. And Tesla has redefined the manufacturing process by making fewer parts (by the thousands) and taking less steps. So at scale by unit and using smaller battery, this Cybercab will vastly easier way cheaper to build.

Yeah, it's there on hundreds of vehicles in the US and you can try it for yourself. It's called Waymo.

Robocabs will be a winner takes most market. The key metric will be cost per mile. Being even just 5% cheaper than the competition will be a massive advantage. It’s very easy for consumers to switch ride share service so most users will use the one offering cheapest per mile rides. The two seater is designed to achieve the lowest cost per mile.

like the roadster?

You need the servo regardless though, and I think we'll see similar fitted (either standard or as an option) on the 3 and Y in due course. You don't want your Robotaxi stranded somewhere because someone forgot to shut the door. They'll get economies of scale regardless from the sheer number of these they're planning to make. The hinge makes no difference at all, the actuator is the expensive bit but is required either way. Window switches are off the door and in the central location. Not sure about speakers.

ask Elon on Twitter

While I agree that unsupervised FSD is no where complete, but it's not vaporware. It is at least 5-7 years away. What they currently have compare to 7 years ago is leaps and bounds better. But all that means is unsupervised FSD is super difficult to achieve and it takes a mad man to make it happen. And Elon is that mad man. An analogy is the Hugh Jackman character in the movie, The Prestige. In search of an impossible magic illusion, he became obsessed like a mad man and actually discovered a cloning machine. He would've never discovered it if he wasn't driven like a mad man to find what he was looking for at all cost.

You can question the event. But obviously they aren’t announcing the compact car on a robot event.

It's all bullshit marketing tactics to pump up the stock price. Can't show off a similar product after all this hype.

Trade-in values of HW3 vehicles are likely to plummet if they become legacy vehicles

Because I'm personally convinced that what was really presented was a model 2 without a steering wheel and that Tesla will release a model 2 before a robocab. But certainly both are vaporware until proven otherwise.

It's in the video brother lol

The only one available for order on the website is the $99k foundation version. Googling it seems to suggest that the $80k offer was only emailed to reservation holders so far. So calling it "available" might be a stretch.

It’s most likely what the Mexico factory will be making once they get established and make it past state to state regulations. The other factories are making everything else when they get over those hurdles in the next few years. So the expanded line up and increased production equals more money. These cars are also cheaper, easier to make and use less expensive materials. So they will sell to an untapped market of a more affordable car and once the factory is established they will be produced faster than the rest of the fleet. You add all that up and Tesla is taking up more of the market from other manufacturers. As for the taxi aspect these will cover single riders as where the rest will cover larger group rides. More than half of current Uber trips are single passenger. So it’s more efficient and in more demand for the robotaxi over the rest of the fleet in most cases. Which means more profit and larger market share.

With $7500 tax credit + additional State incentive. I don't mind that

As well as being able to close the door when people leave it open, you'll need to open it automatically when it is charging and that vacuum robot needs to get inside to clean it. The particular way it opens might be to afford better clearance for the cleaning robot.

Nor will the final version of the cybercab.. (Remember the cold thrusters of the roadster? Well the roadster will never be made)

*cough* Waymo *cough*

but sliding doors are not dramatic enough.. It's all about making promises and dramatic effect that will draw money from people. It's not about the vision anymore.

Agree. That could sell as well as the Y, especially in Europe. Small 4-seater with 500km Range, that would sell VERY good.

You think they will still announce a model 2?

Wait it has no charging port?? That’s a bit nutty

It’s never going to be

Agree with all of the above. Most here just have no vision of what the future of transport will look like. Watch the latest videos by Tony Seba and you will see why. Cost of electricity production is going to almost zero, and therefore cost of EV transportation is going to almost zero. There is no way for ICE to compete even in the public transport space. Whoever can do it the cheapest wins.

Look I understand he is a popular content creator but can we stop allowing influencer discussion videos? All of the points here could be put into a text post.

There is no possible economic explanation for the doors. It's just another sign that this is a vanity project

That's irrelevant. Making a model 3 with a smaller battery pack would be much much more cheaper that designing an entire new car. This is especially true when you consider that it would retain all the seats and would benefit from the economy of scale of a regular model.

Because if they used a car they currently had manufacturing already set up for them they wouldn’t be able to delay this for 5-8 years to kick the can down the road and keep investors chained around the company.

It is still stupid to design a car big enough for 4/5 people and downgrade it to a 2 seater. Your argument would make sense if that car was extremely compact like a Smart to justify that choice.

There are many reasons you only see that design on supercars and none of them are that Elon is the only one who thought about doing that on a regular car.

Why wouldn’t they? Last official communication around it was it launching in H1 2025.

> Then how do you explain the doors? Billionaire doors juice stock prices in a way normal doors don't.

Ditching the steering wheels and pedals gets rid of a lot of complexity, and it might be cheaper with two fancy doors than 4 standard doors. No rearview mirrors. Could be cheaper and easier to collision-safe the driver as well. And they get some savings from 48v too, which i guess they will use for this? Tesla's been talking about their "unboxed" manufacturing process for a while now, which I assume brings notable savings for a simple vehicle like this. The Cybertruck is manufactured like this though, and that's pretty expensive. Probably because of other factors though (stainless)

Adding a steering wheel and backseats to the robotaxi and calling it model 2 would be so much easier than the robotaxi itself, a better and more desirable product and would be available today. There is no reason for them not to do that outside of "they abandoned the project".

>Why wouldn’t they? Because announcing a desirable product that can be sold today is much better than clumsy vaporware people make fun of.

Like what? It's literally rotating a hinge with this design. It's not a more complex design as you see on supercars, it's literally the same hinge rotated so the door lifts up as well as out. What additional parts or design changes are needed beyond rotating the hinge and making sure the structure is strong enough in the appropriate directions? What this allows is for the door to open wider to aid people getting in and out and to make room for the automated cleaning robot to come through the door.

Does Waymos need to shut without a human?

My view is that Tesla put form over function. They were so gung-ho to make it look cool they completely missed the point of such a vehicle which is accessibility to the widest range of customers. It really should look more like a Honda Element than a sports car. Aerodynamics are not going to be its issue but usability is. First off the bat is the seats are far too low which will make getting into and out of difficult for anyone with back issues and similar. The seats should have been positioned so that a passenger can use them like a chair at home. Sit and pivot is far easier that sitting into a seat that is lower than knee height. As for that large screen, instead of focusing on movies and such it should be playing local news and weather with obvious space for ads. Supposedly part of the reason the price was low is that the battery is 37 kWh. Given they built that robovan and twenty cybercabs Tesla spent big money on this event. I figured the robovan was designed for their Boring company

Price point is not the problem, car and battery are much smaller. It’s the unsupervised vision based autonomy I don’t believe is possible at this time.

Yeah I can’t believe how hard this is for people to grasp. As a car owner, buying a 2-seater that works 90% of the time is s a no go, because I need a car for the other 10%. As a trip rental, a cheaper 2-seater can be selected 90% of the time and the other 10% I can select the correct vehicle. I actually think the problem is I never want a 3 or Y. I actually want a 1-2 seater or an SUV. Tesla will need to build a full size SUV/minivan for the family of 4-5 with full luggage.

Others have made it happen. Elon has done nothing but promise and pump up his stocks to be able to finance his private hobbies like rambling on X. if Tesla was rated as the car manufacturer it is he would have gone broke with X by now. Elon has no choice but to keep the grifting up.

For level 5 it has to work 99.9999999999999% of the time. And not some example where it worked which is like working 85% of the time. There have been some recent tests which showed that FSD was the worst out of the bunch and required especially split second interventions. So it didn't find something it couldn't handle and notified the user that he needs to take control in a few seconds but it did things wrong without any warning.

People are missing an upside to Optimus being human-controlled. Plenty of people hire maids, assistants, groundskeepers, etc for their homes. There would absolutely be a market for buying a robot then outsourcing control of it to some call center/Asian factory worker type. Then there’s low-paying jobs that struggle to hire people like grocery stores, fast food, retail, etc. If a company could buy a robot then pay *anyone else from the entire world* to do a task through the robot, their hiring pool grows exponentially and they probably wouldn’t count as an employee or even an independent contractor. It would be like paying a call center in India to answer your phones, but instead they’re sitting with VR goggles and an Optimus controller stocking your shelves or whatever.

I mean they said they were doing unsupervised 3/Y taxi service in California and Texas next year then cyber taxi late 2026. So the plan they unveiled was prove unsupervised taxi service a year before releasing this vehicle.

The roadster 2.0has massive deposits though. So s as bit more than just an unveiling one more thing. Can read specs and put down deposit still today: https://www.tesla.com/roadster As of earlier this year it is expected late 2025: https://www.autoweek.com/news/a60093553/2026-tesla-roadster-specs-price-preview/

the new MG has them too.

They have very clearly stated before they don’t want to osborne the 3/Y.

China has that market on lock.

Nah, he’ll take it the credit-card-processing-fees approach: take n% off the top of every ride. Profits won’t be capped that way.

software costs nothing too install once its made, current customers are paying for the development cost.

I too have decided to wait for AI5

Not really.

Get off your knees bro

He don’t know you little bro

Yeah this is the right answer. One and two person rides are drastically more common and a waste of energy in a Y or 3 when you have this model out there. It’ll likely be a lower cost ride as well

People arguing on the design need to understand that this is all for the show, none of this is coming on the streets in a decade or so. So relax, enjoy another gimmick to raise Capital and keep investors satisfied with “Progress”.

I don't understand why anyone would consider that argument valuable. The 3 and Y have already been sold as potential robotaxis and they do not address the customers who would like a smaller or cheaper car which would be the point of a 2. The current robotaxi is essentially a solution to a problem that doesn't exist (if you exclude Elon needs to buy time).

Every single Tesla product is called vapor ware before it releases. There is no confirmation that “Model 2” is abandoned. The can make a steering wheel version of Cybercab.

Because they wanted something on stage is my guess. I really don't think it is any more complicated than that.

[removed]

Pretty sure they plan to do the no-steering-wheel Model 3 and Model Y as well. So either they think the production savings on this car are significant, probably mostly by having a smaller battery due to improved aero, or they wanted a visible "new product" to generate hype around a feature all of their cars are supposed to have in 2-3 years. Or some combination of both.

Personally I choose public transit because I prefer not sitting in traffic or searching for parking when traveling through or into congested areas. A robotaxi service can help with parking, but isn't going to do much for traffic congestion.

The insane nutty part is no manual emergency stop or manual door controls. Emergencies happen, You don't wanna be trapped in a vehicle.

Waymo are using appropriate tech for the job.

Stock pumping.

Guys, this was just a stock boosting event. Nothing real was announced. When the Cybertruck was announced, it had numbers, factories, reservations etc, and look how long that took. Needless to say the numbers (range, price, towing weight) were well off. The products here are just concepts that have no factories, no numbers, just projection. The robots had humans talking through them and controlling hand and head gestures. Like Elon said, it was structured like an amusement park ride.

That’s also true. It kind of assumes FSD will run perfectly ? Or will Tesla have remote drivers for emergencies ?

This is completely vision based. Yes waymo can do that but can’t scale. This can. Big difference.

It's a concept car dude, they literally always have whacky designs. They had them to sell the vision of the future of transportation, reality will set in and I bet they will be regular doors.

because every tesla can be a robotaxi, for 5 passengers you have model y and 3, that’s what he said

Tesla is a real company that makes real products, so it's stock price reflects that. They sell over a million cars a year with 2 of their models ranked as top 10 best sellers. X on the other hand has plummeted in value. He definitely overpaid for Twitter. Its worth about 12 billions now, and even that is valued high. But it is still the only platform for what it does. Thread or Truth Social aren't making a dent in Twitter's dominance.

Guys, this was a concept car show. Literally everything was conceptual. It was not the model 3 or Y reveal. Some of you need to look at the history of automotive design and how early some cars are revealed and change dramatically. Manufacturers used to be very bold like this. Look at that BMW that changes colors, does anyone actually think that's going to happen? The new Supra was teased for years in various concepts, and not a single one of them looked exactly like the finished Supra. Tesla fans are generally not car enthusiasts yet pay too much attention to early designs, us car enthusiasts are very used to the finished product looking very different. One of the most common concept design features is crazy doors, and yet they never make it! Lincoln barely made any continentals with suicide doors, even though they really pitched it that way with the concept.

Waymo doors are manual, IIRC from my rides with them a few months ago.

Right, but the large battery pack is a feature, not a bug. To ensure adoption of electric cars, you need lots of range.

Dirty Mike and the boys will find a way. They always find a way.

Tesla is horribly overvalued. They sell promises, not cars. Tesla is 700 billion market cap. BMW sells over 2 million per year is 50 billion. Toyota is 350 billion and sells 12 million per year. BYD sells 3 million units and is 100 billion while arguably selling very competetive BEVs. You can get all 3 for the price of Tesla. Vastly outselling them in BEV numbers and having a ridiculous amount of patents regarding batteries.

A 2 seat taxi that is too small for carrying luggage and 2 people to the airport. A 14 seat robot toaster vehicle that doesn't have capacity for carrying 14 people plus their luggage to the airport. Brilliant

The plan seems to be have a taxi fleet comprised of 2 seaters (those), normal model 3, normal Model X and the Van. The dispatcher would know about the party size and dispatch the right vehicle.

This is what I don’t get. Put a premium price on autonomy. Make the model 2 be under 30k, and the fully autonomous version be much more, like 40k. It puts more value on autonomy

all I needed to hear is that they didn't take reservations. This ain't happening. Not at that cost, not on that timeframe.

Minivan style doors also are unobstructive, great for loading/unloading on a busy sidewalk.

No… TSLA has dipped after every single Tesla event. Nothing here is for or related to the stock. Even after the model y event the stock was down. The model y is now the best selling car in the world

When you're surrounded by yes-men, all your decisions seem good.

Yup. They have decided that automation is the future. No one will need to buy the cheap Model 2 because we'll all be riding robotaxis instead - is what they're thinking. I think ppl aren't understanding this. I don't think Model 2 is ever coming.

Yep, and the progress I've been seeing leads me to believe 99.lots of 9s is potentially possible. Not guaranteed, but possible. The deleted post I replied to said essentially said FSD was impossible. Though again I'll caveat the above with one word: snow. It has gotten so good over the summer, it's easy for me to forget that it's had lots of trouble in the snow and in ice. I'm interested to see how it does this next winter, and while maybe it'll be much better detecting the driving path on snow covered roads, it's really ice and slippery conditions that had men the most concerned during prior years

So I was researching if maybe there is a Chinese company with a successful go to maket strategy with similar robocabs and it does seem like the BYD Apollo RT6 is a good example. Level 4 autonomy with removable steering wheel, sliding doors that self-open, charging replaced with a 3 minute battery swap and a price point of $28k. Passengers can only sit in back and images of it configured with no wheel shows that the front seats fold down and it is a 2 person lounge just like the Tesla robocab. What I can’t figure out is the choice of inductive charging vs autonomous battery swaps like NIO has done for years in China. Apparently the average cab ride in wuhan is $2.38 but one of these RT6 can rides averages only $0.53. I think that’s the go to market strategy he’s chasing.

It will need new infrastructure to self charge and be cleaned. The demo video showed robot arms cleaning the seats (and I notice the seats are a divergence from other Tesla seats and look flatter/easier to clean). If they intend to build autonomous drive thrus to clean/charge then the vertical doors make sense so the robot arms can clean it and so when it pulls up to pick up a passenger, it doesn’t open a door into traffic. BYD made their RT6 robotaxi have sliding doors for the same reasons

I think it’s so doors don’t open into traffic and the demo video showed robot arms cleaning the interior; if they are building this kind of infrastructure to clean these cars, then the vertical doors will also help the arms clean the interior unobstructed. BYDs Apollo RT6 chose sliding doors but vertical accomplishes the same thing

Nothing you have said could not be done with van style sliding doors that are familiar, accessible, and affordable.

Look up the BYD Apollo RT6 robotaxi working in Wuhan right now. Sliding doors and 2 seats for passengers, steering wheel is removable but that configuration shows folding front seats so it’s still a 2 person lounge. $28k price point. Apparently the average cab ride in Wuhan is $2.38 and the Apollo Go service averages only $0.53. I think this is the go-to-market strategy that Elon is trying to bring to the US that he has seen deployed in China. He has said before (and Jim Farley, CEO of Ford said this year also) that the American consumer doesn’t realize yet that Chinese manufacturers are now winning in innovation

I don’t disagree- but sliding doors also mean a bigger footprint and I think they want a small car for a litany of reasons. Go to Europe or asia and you’ll see numerous cities that you need a truly small car to navigate. Obviously we are all speculating here but that’s my theory of how those choices were arrived at. The one I can’t figure out is the choice of slow/inefficient induction charging which will keep these cars from being able to continuously work for you during the day

and what products called vaporware have actually been fully released? Any released anywhere even remotely close to their estimated releases?

Why do robotaxis need to be able to close their own doors?

If you think any of that is happening on that timeline I’m not sure what to tell you. There is 0 chance an unsupervised taxi service on existing vehicles launches next year

No don’t trust timeline. Trust ordering.

Why would it need a bigger footprint? Why can’t the doors slide down the body of the proposed car? They fit them on the Kia Rey and the Peugeot 1007, both smaller than the robotaxi.

That’s my point. Before we see unsupervised taxi service we’ll see unsupervised personal driving, before we see that we’ll see supervised with no interventions needed for thousands of miles, etc. All of this will take years from where we are today. Talking about these products and giving dates for selling them that are absolutely unrealistic should be illegal. It’s the same game they’ve played with FSD for the last decade or more. Say it’s 1-2 years away to spike investor interest, but keep moving that goal post.

Those are great examples of cars with those sliding doors that I had not seen before. That being said- those are both objectively boxier and IMO less sleek/attractive but you are right those both come in at 140 inches long and use sliding doors

Wireless charging can be added to any vehicle, presumably the robot cleaner concept could be adapted for other vehicles as well.

The event was held at a movie studio where Tesla spent months mapping the entire route. It's not remotely close to being available on public streets.

FSD is never going to work using just a camera based system.

His timelines announced at the event weren't remotely realistic. What are you talking about? It was clearly all vaporware that is a minimum 5-10 years away from production.

Never is a pretty strong word... Care to place a wager that at some point, people will be about to legally ride in an fully autonomous Tesla (using only vision) on some public roads?

Every single Tesla vehicle that was announced was called vapor ware, starting from the original Roadster. Most recently, Cybertruck and Semi, and of course FSD. Vapor ware means it’s never going to be released. Don’t move the goal posts. Cybertruck was the 3rd best selling EV in Q3, after Model at and Model 3

Keep saying that to yourself when thousands are relying on FSD to get them to work/home

Most of these products didn’t release close to their timeline or at their announced prices. A 2026 Robotaxi for 30k is not going to be a thing, it’s stupid to even suggest it will and it’s ridiculous that a major company can announce it and a large group of people just don’t seem to care.

[deleted]

It wouldn't be the first time a car was unveiled at a auto show with fancy doors and handles, and ends up with regular ole doors.

I disagree a bit on whether they need unsupervised on the self driving personal cars first. I think there are 2 main reasons for this: 1. They can start unsupervised in a small region where they fix all the mapping issues, have a backup supervised/service plan. 2. Users like us reporting disengagements is always going be much higher. I disengage because I want to go faster, it’s going to miss a turn, I don’t trust how close it is, etc. This is due to liability, that if FSD hits anything I am responsible. If I was in an uber I would pet the driver make those decisions, deal with slower driving/route. If Tesla took liability 100% I could drop my disengagements drastically. If I could get Tesla to fix a few mapping/decision issues then I could pretty much go unsupervised today. The point is disengagement levels are largely liability focused.

The robo taxy flat floor, semi bench with no rear etc actually appears to be optimized for cleanings.. If you have ever detailed a normal car all of the spaces around a seat can be really hard to clean. That and under seats.

Maybe they needed enough floorspace to fit a reasonable-sized battery... so the "Smart"-sized car was too small. So they decided to add extra trunk space. I get the size, narrower tires, trunk, no frunk, etc. But I DO NOT get the butterfly doors. Why do this when it's meant to be simple and built for mass-rideshares?

Robotaxi is only aiming for 200mi of range.

It's gonna have to be super cheap to the consumer to be disruptive. Otherwise I'm just going to keep biking and taking transit.

And they also cost 150-200k each.

Nor is the robotaxi let’s be real

I agree their liability focused but why wouldn’t they have the same robotaxi level liability option on their current vehicles unless they can’t by the hardware. like you said if they offered taking liability you may have less disengagement. I disagree that they are close to that point though. For them to have liability the safety related disengagements need to be incredibly low, and I think at least an order of magnitude less than they are today. I also agree that if they rolled out unsupervised in a controlled area they mapped possibly with remote intervention (aka the waymo plan) that’d make a lot of sense. But they haven’t really hinted at moving that direction and if anything have doubled down on general non-geofenced solutions

I think for robotaxi the 30k price point was just the car, it did not include the FSD license, which for commercial purposes will be way more expensive than 12k and will have a upfront option or a per ride/monthly fee option. Obviously the car is useless without fsd, but its a way of subsidizing the hardware through software. Pretty mush the same economic model as printers use today.

The robotaxi doesn't have bench seating. And you're assuming that the future model Model 3/Y where they remove the steering wheel, to make it suitable for robotaxi use, wouldn't have similar interior streamlining.

I said semi bench, both seats are very flat, very even, there is a minimal shared armrest between them that gets out of the way. There is minimal adjustment in the seats. Nothing in the way between the seats for the arm to get blocked. [Tesla Inductive Charging and Auto Cleaning for Robotaxi from We Robot!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHoe2FB5aCU)

Stock dropped ~7%.

The Cybertruck seems like a dud, but it's also helped them tool production for the future. One example is mass production steer by wire which is required for the Cybertaxi to drive itself without a steering wheel. This should in turn reduce components, and costs,, helping them achieve a more affordable price target. Maybe the Cybertruck eats some of those initial research and development costs while they hone the manufacturing and production processes, then the rest of the fleet, including the Cybertaxi, benefit. It just feels like there's much more going on than some hopeless truck project that they pushed through for it to be a big flop.

My question is, if the car gets into an accident, who is responsible if the car is driving itself, and there is no way for the passenger to drive?

They took reservations for the Roadster too right?

They did, and I think that's biting them.

Again, while all reasonable points, sliding doors solve all of those issues. They have soft close, can be motorized, don’t extend out to hit curbs. Door handles can be removed regardless of the hinge design to stop people from yanking or opening doors early.

Those doors are a lot simpler than the Model X and likely not too much more cost than a standard door.

> As a trip rental, a cheaper 2-seater can be selected 90% of the time and the other 10% I can select the correct vehicle. What makes a 2-seater with a giant trunk cheaper than a 4-seater with a normal sized trunk?

It kind of assumes the whole vehicle isn’t just a spectacle to pump the stock. LOL

I didn't say it was a successful stock boosting event. But clearly the event was a big misstep. Tesla made the transition into a company that shows off concepts and human-controlled robots while trying to sell the former as actual products and the latter as completely autonomous. It highlighted was Tesla can't do and revealed how far behind they are in case people were wondering. It was quite disappointing.

It comes down to energy per mile. They want a hyper efficient ev that gets even better miles per kilowatt. Two seaters are lighter and will require lighter battery packs and so the ev can be super light weight in comparison.

3 years ago they announced plans for Optimus by bringing a human in a body suit on stage. Today we have a fleet of walking humanoid robots serving drinks and people are disappointed they’re tele-operated haha.

[deleted]

Well 25k vs 35k is almost 30% less on the depreciation costs. We will have to wait to see kw per mile for efficiency. I would agree a shorter car would have probably been cheaper and more efficient.

Oh nooo not their low volume sports car that they’ve back burnered!

I’ll always remember Marques laughing at the original AirPods price. A product which went on to be one of the most successful ever. If you needed a reminder of how “knowledgeable” this guy is about hardware development and customer base.

They might switch to conventional doors for the production version

Because it’s cool!

Wow factor

Taxi's in Japan have automatic closing doors so the drivers don't have to get out and shut them when a customer inevitably forgets.

Ok but you are changing the goal posts. They are not vaporware. They exist. I don’t care if they hit 2026. It’s coming one way or another.

We aren’t. Elon is lol.

From my experience as a ride share driver my bread and butter was people who owned cars, but are responsible enough to not drink and drive. October through December is party every weekend. Early evening starts out driving people from their houses in the suburbs into the city, then transitions to moving people from club to club, and finally getting people home. Probably 95% of my passengers owned a car themselves.

He’s trying to steal public infrastructure money and keep us from building trains.

> Most of these products didn’t release close to their timeline or at their announced prices. That. Doesn't. Make. It. Vaporware.

Why would they? Have you ever tried to sell a game back to Steam? Do you use that say the game has no value?

The stock drops after every Tesla event. This is nothing.

You don't. How is this so hard to understand?

hey can you do me a quick favor and put vaporware into google? Or go to the wikipedia page? > In the computer industry, vaporware (or vapourware) is a product, typically computer hardware or software, that is announced to the general public but is late, never actually manufactured, or officially cancelled. Use of the word has broadened to include products such as automobiles.

They’re using lidar. Specifically, Luminar Tech

Probably the entity that owns the car but I’m sure that’s something that’s part of the agreement when someone buys one.

It's so cheap, you just hire two!

WIRELESS ONLY CHARGING?? I have yet to watch the video cause I'm at work, but that is a buck wild choice. Form over function, yeesh.

Never with today's camera technology. Not saying future cameras with localized dimming of the lens plus some other stuff might not get them there. But without 3-4 different detection methods you will, most likely, not get to 99.9999%. 95%? 98? Sure. There is a reason why most companies that are already doing level 5 are using cameras, ultra sound, radar and lidar in parallel. Each of them has certain strong points and under almost any possible scenario at least one of them will still give legitimate data.

You dont park your car in a garage or use your own cybercab to make short trips? Damn, nice value prop for a 25k car. Stupid is as stupid does

4 seater with 2 doors ?

It's cool on a Lamborghini owned by someone who doesn't worry about parking space. On a taxi where it will slam into something or someone? That coolness will get old very quick. This is especially true on a car that doesn't have regular commands to park it where you need.

But if you need more floor space, you can still make a bigger car that will transport 4 to 5 people while being smaller than the robotaxi. It should look like a London cab, not a coupé.

He also didn't think CT would be produced at the volume that it is now.

Tesla too often puts form over function and it’s hurting the brand. 1. No model 3/y driver screen, but it has a rear seat kids screen. 2. No rain catcher on roof because it doesn’t look cool 3. Heavy and large wheels, because they look cool.

> Each of them has certain strong points and under almost any possible scenario at least one of them will still give legitimate data. If the only working one is lidar, and the car is about to enter an empty intersection against a red light, an accident from a car with the green who is also about to enter the intersection is all but guaranteed. Seems even with lidar, your criteria of 'success' isn't met

Was the ATV ever technically announced or promised as a future product outside of demonstrations for the functionality of the Cybertruck?

I suppose you could argue that it's still cost effective to just modify a Model 3, but it's definitely more than just a steering wheel delete. Namely, a battery pack that's half the size for cost reasons. And I'm going to just go out on a limb and assume one big casting for the entire skateboard, for the same reason.

I'm sure because some human troll will leave a door open on purpose.

That makes sense and I think Model 3 and Model Y with unsupervised FSD already can cover that demographic. That's why I think what they are trying to do with Cybercab is much more ambitious - targeting commuters and others in cities who do not own cars. Again, that's just my guess. I could be totally off the mark.

The robotaxi as it exists is very purpose built: \* It's designed to be lightweight \* It requires fewer batteries, since a low battery cab can be sent back to base and replaced invisibly with a new one - a consumer car can't. it needs to fill the purpose of the user much more generally. \* It has far fewer parts than other cars. This means they can lower the price point significantly, and produce many of them. I have a family of 4, and if I count up all the times I've uber'ed in my lifetime, I've probably only had everyone in an uber together a couple of times. By far it was 1 or 2 people 99% of the time. If I can order a second cab to "caravan", having 4 seats vs 2 doesn't add much. All of that said, I'm sure there will ultimately be room for a consumer version of this very car... They mentioned that's probably going to be a goal given that certain markets won't be robotaxi friendly immediately (I'm looking at you europe) In terms of "a modular design", there's no indication that this isn't already modular in some respect. We literally have no information on that. If they intend to use the platform for other products, I suspect modularity is a big part of their design.

Why are 2 extra seats better than just an extra cab you can order? This isn't a "family cab", obviously... but that's like what, 1% of the market for rideshare?

Not how Elon put it. Just look at the presentation. Entire stadiums that are missing parking lots filled with lush green space. Why would 2 fewer be better anyway? And don’t tell me it’s for cost savings when he has automatic power opening butterfly doors on it. There’s a reason those only exist on $250k+ cars.

i agree with you. although sliding door is interesting too. not a fan of the butterfly doors but might be easier to make?

Unironically, the 3 was supposed to be the taxi fleet, hence the lack of buttons and giant screen. Elon said so.  It really does make no sense to build and entire new supply line, vs remove/modify existing.  Butttt, check out the video. I saw several model y’s driving by themselves 🤔

> The Cybertruck seems like a dud By which metric?

That van is for sure never coming lol

HW3 trade in prices have been dogshit for a long time though, to be fair

See if think it’s the opposite; I think the butterfly lambo doors look cooler but probably would have the same issues as the model x falcon wing doors

Dwarf sold separately to drive the car

It’s not. I’ve tried FSD in a non crowded city like SF. I’ve used it in the suburbs. It’s not great.. the tech needs to get there before announcing this.

When FSD is at a good place I think these convos can be more organic.

think it's mostly the body and interior but the really costly stuff like battery, motors and AI logic for FSD are already mostly developed. but yes, would be cheaper to do it that way. less shocking and futuristic.

can we talk about how musk has got to be banking on an ally in the white house? otherwise how does this get approved to go on the road? waymo uses \~250k in sensors and humans write all the code. this is cameras and AI logic.

That’s really good but the labor costs for Americans vs. Chinese are there no? I’m honestly curious tho now that you mention it. It is really promising. Does it use different tech than what Tesla is doing now?

Honestly confused why people don't see this as obvious. If you need more than one cab get more than one cab In all other instances (90%? 95%?), get one cab. Maybe one day a case will be made for a 4 or 5 person cab. Great, if the market asks for it, it can be provided.

But couldn't one of those optimus robots manage the charging cable? If it's not too busy being someones friend...

Yeah it uses Lidar and does battery swaps instead of induction

Did BMW attach a price point and say the rainbow car is releasing in 2 years?

It's an early version of the remotely controlled carriage that will lead undesirable humans to their death. An upcoming model will include a gas dispensation system and a route that goes straight into a crematorium.

Sure. It's an early version of the remotely controlled carriage that will lead undesirable humans to their death. An upcoming model will include a gas dispensation system and a route that goes straight into a crematorium. Specimens like Peter Thiel and other owners of all property in the US, will pay to have people they do not like, carried en masse.

Agree with most of what you said except for the following > As for that large screen, instead of focusing on movies and such it should be playing local news and weather with obvious space for ads. If I'm already paying for a ride, I do not want to be offered ads. Secondly, I do not want to be watching news or a weather channel during my ride. I have my phone for that. Keep the screen for traffic routes, ETA to destination, and entertainment (movies/tv/music).

Regardless of the vehicle form factor, there are so many considerations that needs to be addressed on the infrastructure side of a taxi bussiness (let alone regulations) on the basic supply/demand + upkeep of the vehicle. Imagine going to work and let your car go do robotaxi all day and come back to get you. Who will be responsible for making sure nothing of value is stolen from the car, vandalism, insurance in accidents, naturally lower demand during off peak times, cleaning in between rides (are we gonna go Airbnb style and make each customer clean after every ride and charge cleaning fees if they don't?) Depleted battery when you have to go home at the end of workday.. it really does put out a concept of plan with so many unanswered questions.

Looks like you need a Rivian

FSD is not here yet, not at the level Tesla is promising. Tesla has made this promise far too many times to just accept it without real proof: wait for Teslas to be sold without steering wheels and actually driving on public roads.

I think that it is because they have this "cool" factor they are trying to maintain. Tesla's higher ups, like Elon, are trying to make their vision of the future real, and their vision is cool, but lacks some sensibilities, like accessibility and practicality. Also there seems to be no one in a high enough position to point out the obvious things like you have, and change the plan. I suspect they anticipate another company to take on FSD taxis that are more accessible, and people will choose Tesla based on the "vibes"

It's simple, it's just not going to be $30k.

They started taking reservations for the cybertruck years ago, supposedly for $39k, just now they are shipping and at more than double the price it was originally announced at. Cybertaxi is no different, and no reservations shows even less confidence.

Perhaps Lidar is the way to go? All the autonomous taxi companies use it. I think it’s mostly superior to “vision” to be honest.

[removed]

If I remember correctly, Elon argued that LiDAR had hit a wall because the data sets are so huge to process/train on and it’s why waymo can only drive in like 3 cities because it needs to be trained on specific routes, and the processing would be too much for it to reason through driving decisions live on any random road. LiDAR for sure seems like it is safer/ more accurate on the roads it is trained on though. Theoretically, humans navigate with vision only so you’d think a car with cameras would eventually get there as well and it’s ridiculously cheaper than outfitting cars with LiDAR arrays

It’s def possible. I mean, vision isn’t enough though. Over tried FSD in a non congested area. Really, really horrible. I can’t imagine paying 8k for this tech…. I like him but he argues a lot of things. I think it was right in some ways. But it seems like it’s the way to go for fully autonomous vehicles. I could be wrong tho.

Over all it will have less parts and cost much less to produce. Tesla has factories that run 24-7 and any vehicle they don’t sell they could put into their own robo taxi fleet. It’s actually a brilliant plan. They are moving from selling cars to selling rides. I driven with fsd 12.5 and it’s pretty impressive I didn’t have to intervene and I kept changing the route to try and break it. Held up pretty good just needed me to tell it where to park. As an investor I’d like to see a pedal and steering wheel option though.

These will never be delivered.

A 2 seater robotaxi (assuming it works) with camera only hardware is in theory way cheaper than retrofitted Jaguar or Chrysler minivans for driving 2 drunk people back from the bar. the whole plan is to undercut Waymo on price, by cutting as much cost as possible for the typical use case.

Would it make a difference?

It doesn’t need level 5, whatever that actually means in the real world. It needs to pick up two drunk people from a crowded bar and take them home, or take a kid to hockey practice, or drop a traveler off at the airport. And it needs to do that much cheaper than waymo by ditching stuff that people don’t use, like rear seats on a one person trip.

How do you know it would be cheaper? What proprietary information do you have?

Yeah most people don’t get this. If you can get the one business traveler to the airport for 30 instead of a 45 dollar Waymo, you win.

Don’t confuse the cybertruck price with the cost. They had huge demand, and since they don’t have dealers, they just mark it up/sell expensive trims first.

If you're talking about Tesla's ability to deliver on promises, then yes it does matter if you are specifically using it as a reference point for instances of Tesla delivering on expectations.

[deleted]

It seems like you’re being pedantic about whether or not the little four wheeler was officially announced.

Oh it isn’t huh? Go ahead and google “best selling car in the world 2023”. You are wrong. It outsold the Toyota Corolla which previously held the crown

we're on reddit bro of course im being pedantic

lol… cheers

A cab needs to be economical, cheap to produce and easy to operate. To produce a family car derivative is easier but not good enough in the long run. The Tesla Robotaxi seems perfect for 90% of the taxi use cases - when was the last time 3 or more people needed to get a cab together? It's mostly one's and two's.

I’m frustrated that Tesla is focusing on robotaxis and futuristic pods instead of investing in proven technologies that truly “accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy”—like buses, trams, and trains. Public transportation in the U.S. is underdeveloped and stigmatized, seen as a last resort for the poor and marginalized. Tesla’s expertise in manufacturing, software, electric motors, and battery tech could revolutionize public transit, reducing traffic and pollution, saving people money, creating jobs, and lowering gas prices for rural communities. Market leaders like Tesla should build efficient transit systems, not chase vaporware concepts. Imagine the U.S. with bullet trains like Japan instead of traffic jams filled with isolated pods. Our transportation choices reflect our society—we need more community and togetherness, not isolation. Pedestrians and cyclists, the greenest commuters, are often overlooked. Did you know the humble bicycle is the most efficient transport machine we’ve ever built? It’s something crazy like 3000 mi/gal equivalent. It’s time for Tesla to lead by investing in sustainable public transportation that brings people together and moves us forward as a society.

this is the only reasonable comment i have come across here.... most redditors are just Elon naysayers who still can't wrap their heads around his ability to revolutionize technologies..... but i shouldn't be surprised. we've all seen elon prove people wrong time and again. he's gonna do it again and mkbhd is gonna have to shave his head.....

the stock drop was pretty expected and i’m sure tesla execs also saw it coming

i think majority of people understand this, I was confused what the point of the event was it was a no brainer stock prices were gonna drop and it was gonna get bad pr, then I remembered “all pr is good pr”

Why should we go back to 20th century technology?

I think he purposely chose to build a 2 seater so that his current Y and Model 3 sales wouldn’t plummet. If there was a fully self driving 4 seater coming in the next 2 years everyone would just wait

Tons of companies say their concepts will go to production. The fact that Elon gets timelines wrong is well known, he even mentioned that himself, so not sure why you'd expect any different...

The majority of rideshare rides are for just one passenger, with two seats you cover an even greater majority. Making the car smaller makes it cheaper, easier to build and have better range. This means you can make more and sell more. The continual profits from having more robotaxis far exceeds the one time profit of selling a more expensive car, further exacerbated by how you can't make as many larger cars and sell as many more expensive cars.

If it was designed for lowest cost per mile it would have a charging port which isn’t nearly as inefficient as inductive charging.

Waymo will never get to level 5, which is unsupervised FSD. Waymo will forever stay at level 4, which is geofenced, meaning restricted to certain roads or area only.

languid trees humor sharp cobweb wakeful nutty rain marry station *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev/home)*

Because sometimes the most effective solutions are the ones we've already perfected. Tesla is trying to reinvent the wheel by focusing on robotaxis and futuristic pods instead of investing in proven technologies like buses, trams, and trains, which are far more efficient for mass transit. Increasing car dependence—even with electric cars—is something we should discourage, not promote. I understand this is a broader issue tied to government policies and campaign lobbies, making systemic change challenging. Tesla is simply trying to fill a market demand. However, Tesla has the unique potential to leverage its technological dominance to upgrade and modernize public transit systems if it really wanted to. And let's not forget, electric cars themselves are based on 19th-century technology. So it's not about going back to old tech, but about enhancing proven solutions to meet today's sustainability goals.

There are people doit these type of modifications in a shed. Designing a new car costs billions.

They were worth more than 700 billions, I believe they were at 1 trillian at one point. No other car companies will ever reach anywhere near that valuation, so don't compare them to Toyota and BMW. Tesla is more than a car company. You compare Tesla to other tech companies like Apple, Google, Amazon, Facebook, etc, then their high valuation will start to make sense.

And if we compare them to Google, Nvidia etc. What Tech products, except promises, do they sell? Gronk? Lol. Tesla makes like 90% of their revenue with cars and energy storage is by far the second biggest. Here is a sankey diagram as a diagram. I am still puzzled how even big investors get scammed by Elon. https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/1eav9k7/oc_how_tesla_makes_its/

did they return all those $50k deposits?

Tesla is the most shorted stock in history, so it's the opposite of a scam. But last I've heard, the short sellers are the ones losing money. Yes, Tesla's revenue is mostly from car sales right now, but investors see Tesla as a tech company, at least more so than Toyota or BMW. Maybe because Tesla is run by Musk, and he has a bunch of other tech companies that do share resources with each other. For example, their AI tech is definitely a shared tech by all of Musk's companies.

Not sure why people pay attention to his opinions on tech after he proved how extremely clueless and out of touch he is with his wallpaper app

How is it too small to carry 2 people and their luggage to the airport? We literally saw it fit 2 people many times at the event, and the trunk is pretty spacious for such a small car

Hopefully they don't have carpet on the actual vehicle, for public use you need material that will clean easily.

AI tech will not be revenue by Tesla but by X AI or however it is called. And X AI does have 0 innovative products and 0 innovative known developments.

I'm not expecting different. You're saying the criticisms of these vehicles is unwarranted because it's an early concept presentation and shouldn't be taken at face value. I'm saying the company presenting them says otherwise.

Not enough wallpapers.

I think it’s brilliant being a 2 seater. If you look around while driving all the cars around usually have just driver and sometime a passenger. If need more room just order another cyber cab for additional passenger. Everyone can just go comfortably to the destination. It has plenty space for groceries or shopping. I could very well see this being the future and making total sense. This is where we shouldn’t have been now. Not the phase that legacy car manufacturers are going.

Butterfly doors allow it to fit into tighter spaces. Also, two doors are cheaper than four. This is a barebones economy car. If they get rides down to the prices Elon talks about, no one will care if they have to order two cars. There will be plenty of them waiting to pick you up.

They already have 7-seater cars. Problem solved.

It’s harder to make a stubby car aerodynamic, no?

Not sure if serious or joke response. Referring to the Y or the X? I have a 7 seater Y and the 3rd row is kids only and lose all your luggage space. The X is to expensive of a car to use for a taxi.

>the market has already spoken - 200mi cars just don't sell This is off topic, but I wonder if this will change as consumers gain confidence in charging networks. I think people know they don't necessarily need 300mi for daily use, but they're worried about going 2-3 days or more between charges. Once Superchargers become more prevalent, "charging anxiety" goes down, and then in turn "range anxiety" goes down. I could see a $20-25k 150-200mi vehicle catching on in another 2-5yrs. I think especially now that everybody's converging on NACS, we'll see further expansion of the Supercharger network, as well as growth in 3rd party networks.

The X. I mean, who’s to say they can’t make a more stripped-down version? Replacing all the expensive driver interface equipment should bring the cost down.

I’m pretty sure sliding doors would be more complex than this. I could easily see how having to worry about rails, bearings that ride said rails, additional sensors, more complex mechanism to create the latching and outwards sliding motion, would be harder to assemble and have a higher bill of materials.

So how do you drive a car without steering wheel and pedals?? What is even the 30k model do? Just stand there and do nothing???

Just off my head, what Elon has said previously is that the “robotaxi” car is supposed to be a revolutionary construction/radically much cheaper to produce. Let’s say Tesla manages to be grant regulatory approval for unsupervised FSD in some US states (with more on the horizon). Just imagine the demand for this car. It would be out of this world. That assumes that Tesla even wants to sell it rather than deploy it themselves. In order to churn out the numbers needed to cover demand, it would probably have to be revolutionary in how it is built to scale manufacturing. It’ll likely be an order of magnitude more cars produced than any car in the history of cars.

Because it is self driving. It’s not going to compete with any car. And statistics probably show that 95% of all trips made in a cab is less than 2 ppl.

Many times during his speech Elon Musk spoke of "cost per mile". I think the goal is to make the taxi rides very inexpensive for the rider. The cost is two things: (1) the cost to buy the car divided by the number of rides it can provide over its lifetime. The 2-seat car is very cheap compared to model-3. and (2) the "fuel" cost per mile. The 2-seat car has much less mass and will require less power and a much smaller battery. Electric cars really do have a high fuel cost. I did two trips recently, one in a Model-3 and the other in my 2013 Toyota Prius-C. Both covered the same route (along CA 395) and a distance of about 700 miles. I spent less on gas for the Prius than the cost of supercharging the Model-3. (The Prius-C gets an honest 51 MPG driving at the speed limit or very slightly higher). Fuel cost is a real issue with electric taxis, the model-3 might cost double to drive vs the robotaxi. and of course it costs about double to buy. Musk is trying to make the robotaxi rides cheaper than a bus ride and I double a Model-3 can do that. It was very surprising to me that the Model-3 costs more per mile to drive than a Prius. (assuming you have to charge at public chargers.). Robotaxi is designed to address this problem.

I think the robotaxi will be used as a robo-delivery van. Hence the large truck. Finally, the VAST majority of cars on the road have only one person inside. I think having two seats covers 90% of all taxi trips. The other 10% can use Model 3 or Y.

While you can buy a robotaxi. You would not. The taxi is designed for a world where most people do not own cars. Already we see cities where peoe do not want to own cars, Peris, Tokyo, and NYC. When peoe find that can get a ride for about $2, they might wonder why they should own a car. OK, it is not "either/or". Today in Los Angeles there are more cars than licensed drivers. People own multiple cars. When taxi rides cost nearly nothing, people will own fewer cars, For some this means zero cars, for others maybe they only have two cars and not four.

2 seats cover 90% of all taxi rides. The vast majority of rides are for just one person. For the remaining 10% of rides, the taxi company would have a few model-3 to offer at a higher price.

Doors? We need more data but I suspect a taxi has the problem if parking near a curb where the curve height is too tall for a conventional door, especially with such a low to the ground car. That said a taxi can choose where to park and avoid the issue that way. But these doors MIGHT(?) offer the car more choice in where to park. Do we really know how far outward the door goes when it opens? If no more then a conventional door then it is fine. Curbs are a real issue.

As I wrote above, curbs are a real problem for conventional doors on low to the ground cars.

Conventional doors on small cars will hit the curb even on low curbs so that must be parked a long way from the curb. State laws limit the distance to curb to only 18 inches. This is the problem Tesla solved with the doors. Also, the closing force is gravity assisted so the door can close slowly. Convenmtional doors must be "slammed" which is an issue for automatic doors.

Yet again, nothing conventional minivan style doors can’t accomplish.

So you use a 30,000 robot to manage a cable when a low-cost charge coil can do the same job? Once you glue the coil the parking spot it is there for many years. It might even be more durable then the cable. Remember the primary user of the taxi is the rider. Riders NEVER have to deal with charging of battery range. The wireless charger is meant to lower the cost of the taxi fleet operator by reducing labor costs.

If you are right or not depends on the number of cars sold. At some point design cost is very small if you make enough cars. Manufacturing cost dominates very quickly. Itis clear then Robotaxi might cost 1/2 the cost of a model3, if you plan to make a million of them.

Taxi riders don't care one bit about range, as long as it is enough to cover their 10 or 20 mile ride. Taxi owners only need enough range so that their taxi does not need to charge during peak use hours. after peak use hours it is OK to have some percent of the fleet on chargers. My guess is that you care more about hours of charge than miles of charge. A taxi fleet operator needs maybe 3 hours of change. But many minutes of those 3 hours will be parked, waiting for a rider. So less then 200 miles might be the best battery size to maximize profit.

Believe me, the AI is the same. Elon even said during his speech that Optimus and Robotaxi share the same technology except "legs in place of wheels". He is more correct than most people think. The technology that is needed is a fusion of these transformer-base networks and old-school rule-baed programming and if you can get that working, it is very wide application for humanoid, taxis and even personal assistant software on your phone.

It makes sense for a taxi. Taxis need to charge themselves with no driver. How would you plug the cable into a driverless taxi?

How possibly would a driverless taxi plug the cable into the charger port? Cables can't work unless there is no driver. OK, maybe there are robots are every charging station, but wireless is even cheaper than robots.

They have to cater to the numbers and can't think about outlayer. Mosr people (work wide) can get into and out of a robotaxi. Old people can specifically request a larger car (and pay more) but Robo Taxi ses to be able to handle 90% of all taxi rides. They can use a Model y for the other 10%

The robotaxi will have FSD included in the price. It will be "free" when you buy the car. Software has zero manufacturing cost In fact over time. FSD will be built into the base models of most cars on the road, like turn signals and headlights. Maybe in 20 years? Later the government will REQUIRE FSD for all cars on public roads as the public will be horrified at the idea of a manually driven car sharing the road with them.

By using the same people that are going to clean the things, if they can operate a vacuum/wipes then they can operate a plug. It's an autonomous taxi with no driver looking in, there will be fluids and there will be messes, and when a customer gets a taxi with an issue it will have to drive itself somewhere to be cleaned. It could easily be plugged in during that time.

Right, "not here yet". The only question is "when?" Musk says by 2027 but more likely "by the early 2030s". we are only arguing about the date.

Yes, the "when" has been the big question for years and years at this point. By now we should all know that Musk's projections are complete fabrications but at least early 2030s is probably not far off. Closer to 10 years away than 2 years away.

do you really think that you are the only person that though of that? that eveveyone at tesla overlooked that??? pat yourself on the back....

will you leave the internet permanently if you are wrong?

Exactly

Majority of rides sharing is 2 or 1 person

Yes, happily. The numbers arent reliable but youll get the jist. Paying $400/month, plus $100/month FSD sub, and getting $2000/month back, is more affordable than paying $420/month

They are obviously not far more efficient. As you admit, there is a market demand for robotaxis, not for more public transit. Noone funds public transportation startups because they suck. You want that to happen, and you want the goverment to make it happen. >And let's not forget, electric cars themselves are based on 19th-century technology. No they are not, they are based on several 21th century innovations. Following your logic every single vehicle ever is based on stone-age technology because they invented the wheel.

I agree with the video… WTF? Just make the Model2, make it cheap, allow any car to be a robot taxi, leave the steering wheel because you’ll always want it for one use or another (like loading cars into trucks, or driving where there are no roads).

Doors: Accessibility, parking in tight spaces, automation. Also cool shit. Lack of charging port: there is no driver to plug the car in to charge. You need to solve for that.

Because you can wireless charge without human intervention?

Why would a business traveler care about the price of something which is a business expense?

I was at the event, the “lambo” doors make ingress and egress super easy without the door being in the way. You can get the same ease with conventional door if it can swing open 90-degree, but you are going to need much more clearance to open that wide. The problem is many streets have high curb/lawn or other objects that prevent conventional door from swinging wide open everywhere. Besides, you cannot swing the left-side door too wide, or else you risk collision with other vehicles, bicycles. Granted, without pedals, big tunnel or high center console. Passenger can easily slide over from right seats to the left. Lastly, the amount of power to close the door from just the door hinge is enormous, especially when the door is wide open. It is much easier to close the door further away from the hinge (like we normally do), now try pushing the car door close near the hinge and you will need much more force. The force to close that swing up door will be much lower due to the strut spring, kind of like how we can manually open/close a 200 lb garage door with one hand/arm because the springs balancing the door weight against gravity. For all these reasons I believe the swing up door is a better in this application. Minivan-like Sliding door will work but it just won’t look as cool and the track will disrupt the clean body line.

Have you never had an expense report scrutinized? It’s practically corporate political theatre when budget cuts are afoot.

Doing a great job deflating the stock rn lol

So then they are only vaporware for the duration of time between an announced release date and the actual release date. Once it exists, it's not vaporware. And there's a massive difference between computer hardware/software and a vehicle, but idiots like you keep throwing around the term vaporware because it's a company/CEO you don't like. Go find a new hobby.

The plan is for the car to park. What's so hard to understand about that?

That makes no sense. To Steam, the game has no value. To a third party, it has value. Just like FSD has no value to Tesla on trade-in (they can add it to any used vehicle for no cost to them), but selling to a third party it has value.

Yeah just like Tesla self drives and parks now.

But that's still a waste of money compared to a better design.

With the addition of the new super computer i would guess closer to 2 than 10. There has been a good pace of development lately and it should only get faster.

Best of luck.

Why do all you geniuses assume you'll have to pay for FSD on a car with no driving inputs?

This sub is full of politically biased morons at this point, don't even try to talk sense.

quack hospital resolute snow amusing unite plucky different pot normal *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev/home)*

Does this mean Tesla is just gonna stop making new cars people can drive? That would be extremely sad.

Just remember the cyber truck base model was supposed to cost $40,000

I think it's designed to solve some of the problems of taxis that automation finds difficult. Eg. Cleaning and charging, and damage proof exterior and interior. It's probably a very similar skateboard design as the 3.

Oh cool, so technology doesn't improve ever, right? The things a Tesla is doing right now is exactly the same as last year? Have you actually spent any significant time driving with FSD, or do you just like spouting off on the internet about things you don't actually know about because it makes you feel so edgy? Because I'm leaning heavily toward the latter. You seem to hate Elon, which is why you're in this sub. Go away, find a different hobby. Maybe go outside and play?

Blah blah, i didnt even read a word you said cause its all gibberish. I understand your wife has a boyfriend but I may/may not have anything to do with it. Stop the accusations and accept the truth.

No you make up your own definition of vaporware and are in denial for some reason Elon announces products at price points, timelines and even specs that are entirely divorced from reality. These are vaporware. They will not release anywhere close to his timeline, or price, etc. Will something eventually release that resembles this? Maybe. But I’d probably bet even money nothing close to a robotaxi is released for general consumption this decade and at who knows what price. So why do it? Why announce something that any reasonable person must understand is an unrealistic timeline and like price or functionality? To continue to trick the easily deceived into enthusiasm and try to hold the stock price. If you were as wrong as Elon is about his timeline and prices for his product announcements, you’d be fired from your job.

I just realized/questions something: yes, it's a 2-door car with a relatively big trunk. Question: Can a single bicycle fit in the trunk? Maybe if you remove the front tire?

Jesus that's a grim idea

There’s a reason the event took place on a film set.

[deleted]

Not a chance

I thought their video made it super clear. Both those functions enable the car to be taken care of without humans. It's a robotaxi. Wireless charging enables it to charge on it's own. The doors open wide enough (and without a human) to enable the robot they showed to clean the interior.

Are they made in America and have the appropriate battery size to be included in the tax credit?

Pervert and his traveling sex pods

You're the one who started the argument by calling modernized public transport "20th century technology". Modernized (efficient, electric, safety-enhanced) buses and trains are no more 20th-century tech than electric cars are 19th-century tech.

In what way was public transport modernized? No where does the comment mention modernization or proposes any innovations to create a better experience for passengers. Public transport is also not efficient at all. You just randomly claim that it will be, even tho all evidence shows the contrary. Robotaxis literally are what you crave - modern (efficient, electric, safety-enhanced) transport.

He explicitly said "upgrade and modernize public transit systems" in his comment. No, robotaxis are a horrible idea, consumption-wise. Loading the streets with single-rider vehicles is NOT efficient in terms of space/traffic nor in terms of the environment. The idea that something being electric therefore makes it efficient is nonsense. If we continue our current accelerating consumption patterns, we will destroy the world regardless of which energy source powers our consumption.

[deleted]

Because Level 5 is super difficult to achieve. Achieving Level 5 autonomy requires overcoming significant technological hurdles, including: Predicting and reacting to unpredictable events: Level 5 vehicles must be able to handle a wide range of situations, including unexpected events like road closures, construction, and other vehicles' actions. Generalization: Level 5 vehicles must be able to operate in any environment, not just specific roads or conditions. Safety and Reliability: Ensuring the safety and reliability of Level 5 vehicles is paramount, which requires extensive testing and validation. Waymo only focuses on level 4 autonomy.

[deleted]

Waymo is still based on level 4 autonomy, that is the limit of their technology. They are limited to certain roads, environments, and weather. Anything outside of those limits, their autonomy won't work.

[deleted]

Unless they invest in a whole new tech for self driving, they are stuck at level 4, but they seem to be okay with that.

1. you can make it much cheaper (only need room for 2, no controls, no back window, new manufacturing process, new body panel technology) 2. you can greatly reduce cost of battery. it will have like 2X better mile per kWh vs any EV now, smaller cheaper battery 3. simple interior; no controls, instruments. designed to be very simple to clean, very durable

No, that was rumor but not true. Model2 will be based on models, robo taxi designed from ground up 2 person, no controls or instruments, mirrors etc

the 2 person can handle 95% of trips, for bigger trips there will be model y (5 people) or robot-van (18 people)