Well if he says it it musk be true
>Musk thinks lidar and radar make self driving cars more dangerous He does make that claim, but I am not sure he actually believes in what he is saying. His motivation seems to be mostly cost and availability of parts. The claim that camera only is actually better seems to me to be a cover story.
More data cant be more dangerous by default. A smart system would use it efficiently. Less data however no system can do anything about. data is not there to use... this dude is a pure con man who will say anything to advance his companies.
Regardless of his motivations or his true beliefs, he sounds like an idiot
>That’s Why Waymos Can’t Drive On Highways Waymos can't drive on highways because they're fully autonomous and have no one in the driver's seat... unlike Teslas / autopilot / FSD which still rely on supervision and the driver to take over in case the car makes any mistakes. Waymos also have to take on all liability in the event of a crash. Tesla does not, given that the responsibility is still on the driver. Well.. at least until recent lawsuits that have held Tesla accountable for literally running people over while driving on FSD... [Tesla ordered by Florida jury to pay $329 million in Autopilot crash](https://www.cnn.com/2025/08/01/business/tesla-autopilot-crash-lawsuit#:~:text=3%20min%20read-,Tesla%20ordered%20by%20Florida%20jury%20to%20pay%20$329%20million%20in,settlements%20more%20expensive%20for%20Tesla) Musk also doesn't seem to be aware that Waymos do utilize vision cameras... just like Teslas... but also utilize radar and lidar in addition to vision. No doubt, Waymo does analytics on their system to determine which sensors to use and at which times. If they determined vision only is all they need in a situation, then they could simply turn off / not use the other sensors in their decision making. (Edit: Also... Waymo has already been testing their vehicles on highways. Unlike Tesla, Waymo doesn't and can't just throw their cars and technology on open roads and hope for the best, relying on the driver to take over as needed in the event that the car does something wrong / dangerous. Waymos, without drivers, have no backup for their autonomous systems. So they need to make damned sure the system works in ALL situations.) Elon Musk is a liar, an idiot, and a scoundrel stock pumper.
Yes, he does think that. Which is why *his* cars keep crashing.
>More data cant be more dangerous by default. A smart system would use it efficiently. His claim is that the most efficient way to use radar/lidar data is to ignore it completely. I don't think that is true, but it is not a theoretical impossibility.
No. Waymo is taking more steps to ensure passenger safety. For example, all of their cars have a fucking door handle on the back doors! Teslas don't and sooner or later a passenger will be trapped in the backseat of their driverless taxi.
Absolutely
His motivation is to push Tesla and the cost cutting “solution” he offers as the superior choice. Of course he’s not going to say he made the wrong decision or use words that would imply competitors have a better solution.
An example that Waymo cited was that their cars need the ability to deal with pedestrians running across a highway, while the Waymo is traveling at a high rate of speed. In a Tesla, maybe the cameras will catch the person in time and avoid them... maybe they won't and the driver needs to take over to avoid them. In a fully autonomous vehicle, there is no driver backup. The car needs to 100% be able to handle this scenario. Same goes for things like deer and moose. You hit a moose at 70 mph in a car, there's a high risk of a serious accident / death. Even a deer that's hit just right could do a lot of damage, but the car would need to decide whether it's safer to hit it or safer to swerve. Meanwhile... in Tesla land: [Tesla Using 'Full Self-Driving' Hits Deer Without Slowing, Doesn't Stop (Jalopnik 10/29/2024)](https://www.jalopnik.com/tesla-using-full-self-driving-hits-deer-without-slowing-1851683918/)
Dude is projecting. He's just now ruled to be liable for an autopilot crash. AP was designed for highways, yet allowed to be operated by Tesla off of highways. His walls are closing in.
It's hard to say with him since he is so manifestly dishonest, but it's possible. There has to be a reason why he stubbornly clings to this strategy in the face of all available evidence.
fsd still making unnecessary turns into turning/merge lanes when it supposed to drive straight for miles.
Safety redundancies are unsafe. Ok I guess we’ll just have to trust you Leon.
I’d really love to see him try to prove the claim. Is it really hard to choose what data to trust if they conflict?
Radar has been used for highway safety driving for years. Economy cars use sensor fusion for highway collision avoidance. They use a camera behind the mirror for lane keeping, and radar modules in the front and back to detect cars in blind spots and ahead.
Despite Muskkk’s claims that LiDAR is stupid, geofencing is stupid and hi-res mapping is stupid, his failed attempt at robotaxis had a fleet of LiDAR equipped vehicles driving around in order to provide hi-res mapping of the geofenced area that his cars with drivers (ie normal taxis) operate in. He lies. Constantly.
i would say it is because its supplementary. Ignoring it under most situations may prove to be more efficient. There is no proof that ignoring it in all will be... Under poor visibility alone supplementary data will improve saftey
Why can't Waymo drive on the highway?
Also waymo can and does drive on highways, they're testing and there's dozens of videos showing it.. they just don't offer it as a public service yet because they actually take safety first seriously
This is a pretty ridiculous statement from him as HIS OWN CARS USED TO USE THE SAME TECH. They stopped using radar and lidar sensors in new cars and started tearing them out of existing cars as it was too expensive and hard to consistently source for the production numbers they wanted.
His hundreds of billions of dollars, his ketamine addiction, and his undying faith that he is the smartest person he’s ever met, and who has ever lived, is why.
Yup, good point.
They can, just it takes the vehicle out of the authorized area pretty quickly. https://laist.com/brief/news/transportation/waymo-freeways-los-angeles
The picture of him in the thumbnail fits perfectly the kind of claims only a manic imbecile on a bender would be comfortable making. People need to stop asking that dumbass opinion on anything other than snorting ket and meth from both nostrils simultaneously.
*more expensive (cost more, cutting into profits)
Uber could be acting in their self interest as well. Waymo/uber app sharing. More expensive $150k cars with LiDAR make it less viable to be mass produced and there would still be a cost effective human driver element….
All of this comes from the time when he was pushing to make the cheap model 3 he promised. He wasn’t able to do it if they had lidar units. So, he made necessity a virtue and declared “lidar is stupid” and used his super brain to determine that if people can drive with two eyes, so can a computer. This idea must have come from the same part of his brain as the cyber truck.
Would be cool if we didn’t need so many cars to be on highways Use trains - create hubs - Waymo people to the hubs How cool would it be if we got rid of half the pavement in the country
So fewer sensors is safer. Because Elon Musk can’t admit he’s wrong despite the overwhelming evidence. Sure big guy.
“Lidar and radar reduce safety due to sensor contention. If lidars/radars disagree with cameras, which one wins? This sensor ambiguity causes increased, not decreased, risk. That’s why Waymos can’t drive on highways,” he wrote, taking a swipe at Alphabet Inc.’s self-driving venture. Musk added that Tesla had disabled radar in its vehicles to improve safety. This is a ridiculous notion. If lidar and vision disagree, the correct answer is to use the one that is indicating danger (ie take the safest path). Lidar and radar can detect actual physical objects that vision may miss and vice versa. A good machine learning should be able to understand when to use which, using safety as the objective function. By Musk’s logic I should plug my ears when I drive in case what I hear with my ears disagrees with my eyes (eg I hear something but don’t see it)
Because Musk is a smart man who definitely knows what he’s talking about… lol
Hmmmmm is that why he is using roof mounted lidar in Austin to validate his unsupervised FSD???
[deleted]
sensor fusion would like to have word with you
It seems a weak argument in the face of it. Yes, lidar and radar might be more expensive NOW, but if self-driving were to scale, then wouldn’t the cost of sensor systems come down? It seems the entire measure is the cost of hardware in the vehicle, but what about attendant software, infrastructure, data storage, and development efforts? If sensors add 2, e or 5K to the cost of the vehicle, wouldn’t that reduce a lot of the software burden in the system, all while making it more deterministic? If you need fewer developers, fewer cores, less disk, doesn’t that matter?
He's saying this to justify his choices in Tesla designs (e.g. no lidar and no radar on 3/y platform). It's clear that his choices/designs don't work in any condition other than essentially stp.
>wouldn’t the cost of sensor systems come down? The cost has already come down, but Elon is locked in to his decision because they have delivered a large number of vehicles that they claim to be capable of full self driving and because Elon is a narcissist who refuses to admit fault.
Waymos test city driving first, because that's much more difficult. Waymo's are already beginning to go on highways though... From surface streets to freeways, safely expanding our rider-only testing https://share.google/v1EU7tTOCrJG5GBxI
you cant blame waymo for collecting data from their sensors... no different then tesla
Musk knows all this, he’s being disingenuous when he talks about Waymo.
He’s going to say this, because he didn’t come up with it and implement it first. He doesn’t really care about the safety part. His ego and narcissism comes first.
but under poor visibility, lidar also has poor visibility And lidar is less effective at high speed The only difference would be good visibility and night time. But there is no evidence that tesla cameras do not see well enough. They seem to be better than our eyes which is considered safe enough to drive Waymo also has a different issue where they run their cameras at only 10hz to synchronize with the lidar. So is a 10hz lidar and 10hz camera better than a 36hz camera?
Waymo's not driving on highways is 100% a liability thing. They are absolutely more capable of making safety decisions than any Tesla but Waymo is uncomfortable with a once in 100,000 miles mistake while Tesla is gleeful about once in 750 mile mistakes.
Big "STOP THE COUNT" vibe.
Hitting a deer at 70mph will not cause death or injury Except to the deer
Or because he’s sold 10’s if not 100’s of thousands of cars already that he’s promised will someday be fully autonomous. Could you imagine the lawsuits if he went back on it now?
One is an idiot and the other does 1000s of rides a day
The *only* people still pushing the 'autonomy' scam are a handful of software companies (including Google and Tesla). Every major automotive manufacturer has scaled back, or stopped research on self-driving because it is futile. In 2024 the Head of VW Autonomy said Level 5 is probably impossible. \[About 90% of current 'autonomy' had already been achieved by the mid-1990s.\] The Chinese government recently banned manufacturers for even suggesting vehicles had self-driving capability. They also banned software updates of 'self-driving' software and on-road beta testing. Waymo can't drive on highways because the vehicles are NOT autonomous. They simply follow pre-programmed routes covering just 568 square miles in three cities. The routes have been 3D scanned and every single sign, manhole cover, roadworks etc is in a constantly updated database. The Waymo model has ZERO scalability because every new area must go through exactly the same data acquisition process (costing millions of dollars per mile).
Company that takes zero liability for what happens with their AV cars points to another AV car company that assumes full liability and shames them for advancing with caution. Stupid.
The biggest cost, which is going to be a doozy and maybe kill the whole thing, is the cost of deaths. Let’s say LIDAR cuts deaths by 75% (split between occupants and pedestrians), and a death costs $10 million. At nationwide rollout that’s potentially a difference of 5,000 deaths per year vs 1,250, that’s $375 billion per year saved. I think deaths are the big wildcard that will break things at scale.
As if Teslas are safe on highways? There was a WSJ article about deaths due to camera limitations in Tesla FSD. Give me a break. Elon's FSD should have been banned a long time ago.
How is that kind of logic gonna pump TSLA's stock price?
Tesla requires a person sit in front and supervise the driving and intervene if necessary. Why is that, Elon?
It sure if he actually that stupid or if he just thinks everyone else is that stupid.
I just drove by a Waymo on the 5 freeway this morning. New VW van version.
> A smart system would use it efficiently Perhaps that tells us the Tesla system is not that smart?
Yikes. I think this is even worse than Musk with steepled fingers playing at being a super genius.
I'm pretty sure we all know why Waymo's don't drive on highways? We all know they WILL get into some accidents. And highway accidents are much more likely to cause injury or death. They don't want that of course, but they especially dnot want that early on when they are still figuring things out. Even if the "incidents per mile" is way lower than human drivers, a fatality or two could do HUGE PR damage to Waymo. So for safety reasons, and PR reasons, they wanted to drop that chance as close to zero as possible for a long time.
Yeah, why have any sensors/cameras at all? Just fly blind and hope for the best-- after all, any camera is an increased risk and your model might not "agree" with the real world. There's always ambiguity when trying to measure the real world! The point of having more sensors is to try and get close to reality. They're not perfect but that's why using as many as possible to making an informed decision is wiser than just ignoring potential data.
And for a cynical addition... they take PR seriously too. One fatal accident, even if it's much lower incidence than human drivers, could cause a PR nightmare that could derail the company. So they want to be REALLY ready when they are sending their cars out to drive along at 65+ MPH.
>That’s Why Waymos Can’t Drive On Highways Actually that's probably why Waymos CAN drive autonomously at all and Teslas can't.
The tired old "sensor confusion" claim is total bullshit and shows how little Elon understands robotics and navigation systems.
"We don't need any senses but hearing really" Elon Musk on a product blinding it's users in 2030 probably.
He is a liar, liar, and his pants are on fire.
Lmao what an idiot
Musk refused to use Lidar from the get-go, and he is adamantly sticking to his initial belief, regardless of improved evidence to the contrary, making him plain stupid and a detriment to his shareholders.
"FSD will be done this year." .... Lie. "We're gonna cut $2T from the bugdet.".... Lie. "My toddler punched me in the face." .... Lie. "My drug test shows I'm clean and don't use drugs." .... Lie. Anyone who believes this guy on anything has issues they should sort out or their life is going to suck.
Still…… he still wants to stick with vision and not add lidar I don’t understand it. Is it not better and safer to have redundant, overlapping systems. After all as humans we have sight, hearing, touch ,smell, taste. We don’t do everything with one technology.
This right! Waymo will be on highways and be safer before Must gets out of his own way and let Tesla move forward.
Dumb man says dumb things. Don't believe money.
I don't know. He lies enough that he probably starts believing some of his own lies.
He's fucking going the way of windmills now.
Elon is a narcissist… Believe nothing he says. He will manipulate and gaslight until he gets his way like an emotional child. Narcissists left unchecked will eventually destroy their legacy’s and Elon is completely unchecked. Look at his cybertruck, which is the culmination of his bad ideas and not willing to accept no for an answer. He will continue down this path and it will become more destructive. He literally bought twitter because of his trans daughter and projected his hatred to the world claiming a woke mind virus took over. That was him not accepting that his trans daughter was his child, so he blamed everyone else like typical narc behavior. Imagine having to deal with someone that can’t take accountability and responsibility on anything unless it makes them look good and worshipped. https://futurism.com/elon-musk-friend-power-narcissism https://www.imd.org/research-knowledge/leadership/articles/will-elon-musks-narcissism-be-his-downfall/ https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/cutting-edge-leadership/202303/is-elon-musk-a-leadership-nightmare
Well, see… that’s just because Elon is a fucking moron.
You’ve never seen a deer go through a windshield, have you?
Musk came out early on years ago when they removed LiDAR. Said they would get too may false positives and thus the vehicle would brake too often for false indications. As it should. So instead of ensuring it works, lets just take it out so that it now does not have this indication. Of course that allows them to get some form of FSD to market faster and less complaints of unnecessary braking. But what responsible company takes out systems that make it too cautious? Particularly when it is life or death and more often life or death of the general public.
They or the horns go right through the windshield killing people or impailing their chest / face. It can be very deadly to the driver or passenger.
Imagine that. Not wanting to put public lives at risk in a beta test.
Ah yes because having a host of accurate sensor data is bad.
Interesting question. "Lidar is less effective at high speed" Less effective than what? Are we comparing to camera only systems or less effective than Lidar use at low speed? What exact is it less effective than?
It's important to understand that cameras infer distance. LIDAR measures distance. The two can be used very well together. It's called "sensor fusion."
Hitting ANYTHING at 70 mph will lead to death or injury. I really hope no State has given you a drivers license.
That’s the way it should be. This tech industry motto of move fast and break things is only cute when what you’re breaking isn’t lives.
less effective than lidar at low speed You can't see nearly as far Which negates some advantage. Then you have lidar at high speed + medium to heavy rain. At that point I bet there is no advantage And then some amount of information will be thrown away in the process of sensor fusion
Interesting thinking. Critical injury and paralysis might be more expensive than death... Double those numbers.
$2,718.28 is an oddly specific price.
Tesla glass is double paned. It can't be only for acoustics and must have some safety benefit Otherwise tesla would not do it because they are notoriously cheap
And he uses disassociative drugs, so who even knows how jumbled his mind is at this point.
Or, you could choose an ethical course of action, and reject the notion that deaths only matter when they cost too much.
The difference is a deer is not avoidable. Deer can move any direction at a high rate of speed so it is not possible to avoid. Lidar doesn't prevent this if you look at waymo they basically have an issue where if a deer moves one direction and then circles back, it will hit at full speed. There is no avoiding this no matter what sensors you have there will be some amount of unavoidable accident Waymo's issue is more that they have simple problems like stopping on the interstate
More sensors make it way safer.
One of those “I’ll never admit I was wrong” types who I despise.
Tell that to my high school buddy who ended up in the hospital after hitting a deer on a mountain road at about 50 mph. And this was a west coast blacktail deer, considerably smaller than the mule deer and whitetail deer y'all have in the rest of the country.
I don’t know but it was up 10 points earlier today on this.
and some amount of this will always be unavoidable. You just have to not drive a car to avoid this lidar doesn't solve this problem as the issue is not seeing the deer but predicting their unpredictable trajectory
He is such a fucking moron
And thats the Chinese car industry motto right now, cant compete in the real world, the fine tuning is not there,, but they have all the sensor, all the this and that. So some things will never change, they will always be a less car than the western counterpart, but they have the sensor and this they can improve via OTA. They recently all got surpassed by Tesla in security features and measure even using LiDAR, but they already are miles ahead of what Teslas where when they started 10y ago. In 10y im sure they will be on top.
Musk thinks, lmfao.
You don't get it bro, less (sensors) is more because of scaling. Also more (parameters) is better because of scaling. End to end AI on old hardware is also better because of scaling. Oh did I mention scaling, that's the best thing ever, also Google has no clue how to scale software show me one of their products which runs on 20 cars for a handful of fanboys. You can't can you? Check mate!
Why are they even asking him for an opinion? They might as well ask me to weigh in on the best Formula 1 strategies while driving my fiesta.
I live in SF, and am constantly seeing Waymos driving on the freeway from the airport to the city.... unmanned at this point.
I have 300K short position in TSLA, currently at 40K loss, when will this fck'ing ponzi scheme end!
Elon says a lot of shit that has no basis in reality
I would love to see zero deaths from automotive accidents, the current average is around 40K per year from human drivers. One advantage of self driving cars is that they have the potential to reduce this number, but they probably can’t make it zero. I think a major reason why Waymo has avoided highways is actually due to the increased likelihood of deaths in accidents on highways as compared to slower city driving where it’s more likely to just be injuries.
Sounds like Waymo is doing it right
Yep I live in Phoenix and I saw a Waymo on the highway just last week.
This is the hill he is going to die on, and (I suspect) a big reason why he has gone crazy... He knows he screwed the pooch in promising FSD that was backwards compatible with all those cars he sold packages on. His head start has evaporated, and Tesla leads in nothing anymore. And when you don't lead in shit, that's when investors start expecting you to have a PE like Toyota...
California DMV case due for a decision within the next month, hopefully sooner!
More data pretty much never hurts as long as the sensors are functioning properly and the system is designed well. One big thing the technology and popular science media is terrible about doing when it comes to AI, ML and Robotics is hyperfocusing on NNs as some magic black box and pretty much ignoring everything else in the field which is what gives claims like this way more traction than they deserve. Pretty much every autonomous robotics system is based on a constantly updating probabilistic model of where the vehicle itself is and everything else in the environment is too. They have to be because sensors aren't perfect and there's often incomplete information from stuff like sensor occlusions and so on. Multiple sensor or sensors of the same type are constantly spitting out readings and these models are combining them to provide some estimate of where things actually are. That's part of why every other robotaxi company has far more sensors than Tesla does, additional readings literally increase confidence and estimate accuracy if they're done properly. Elon Musk, per usual, just has no idea what he's talking about. At best this entire notion arose from Tesla's own internal problems with their radar array fairly early in the autopilot program. Your standard TACC focused front facing radar array at the time had very poor vertical resolution so it would routinely issue readings for things like manhole covers, overpasses, overhead sign gantries and so forth. Tesla's system at the time just was not smart enough to handle these properly or with the right context so it resorted to just aggressively filtering them at the time under the assumption that the driver would react if they were wrong anyways. This is one of the things that caused the first high publicity fatality related to autopilot when the system failed to recognize that truck semi trailer was in front of the vehicle despite the radar system detecting it and the vehicle drove under it killing the driver was likely distracted on a tablet or smart phone. This wasn't an unsolvable problem by any means, Tesla's vision system and environment modeling just sucked at the time and probably never should have been released to begin with, but Musk will never admit that and probably doesn't actually understand why the system failed at a technical level anyways. So he just continues parroting this nonsense as if sensor fusion is impossible to obtain and Tesla itself isn't still using multiple sensors via redundant front facing cameras, GPS and motion sensors. By far the biggest problem is that people still take what he says seriously and act like he's some kind of authority on a host of subjects despite him demonstrating time and time again that he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about.
What a level headed and logical take. You’re 💯
One major accident with Waymo (or Cruise, et al) and it's a PR nightmare. One major accident with a Tesla and it's just collecting data.
That's an insane take. There's no way you live in deer country.
That's true on literally every subject.
I do, but most people who take robotaxis don't. And tesla vehicles are more aerodynamic (sloping windshield and hood), have active struts on the hood that pop up in the event of a collision, have double paned glass on all windows, and have self driving systems which see further than your eyes at night, don't make bad decisions, and don't get stressed out All while monitoring 360 degrees with greater than human mental effort at all times Even if accidents with deer going through windshields are reduced by 80%, that's more than enough
> If lidars/radars disagree with cameras, which one wins? It makes no sense because that's not how sensor fusion even works. It's not just a "if camera or lidar or radar" statement. Believe it or not, there's a lot of probabilistic models here too, not just with camera data alone. It's a ridiculously reductive statement, or in this case a disingenuous moron's statement.
I might be wrong, but how is it HW3 owners haven't sued dude into the ground yet? He promised it to them and then they were like "oopsie! Just kidding!"
Yep. Like him or not, Musk has been VERY good at creating a weird aura around Tesla that makes it immune to bad news. No matter what happens, everyone shrugs it off and says "oh, *today* isn't important, it's what's *next* that's important!"
Yup, here's an [unedited video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0ccLF4FEKw) from a few days ago if anyone is skeptical.
Musk is a dumbfuck
Idiots are the Redditors in this sub telling people Musk, who worked with all types of sensors in SpaceX and Tesla, doesn't know what he's talking about. But a bunch of Reddit nobody knows the best.
> It can't be only for acoustics and must have some safety benefit It sure as hell can.
> The difference is a deer is not avoidable. Deer can move any direction at a high rate of speed so it is not possible to avoid. Lidar doesn't prevent this Way to move those goalposts. First it was hitting a deer will not cause death or injury and now it's LIDAR won't prevent it. >if you look at waymo they basically have an issue where if a deer moves one direction and then circles back, it will hit at full speed WTH wank is this? Do you think deer routinely violate the laws of physics? >no matter what sensors you have there will be some amount of unavoidable accident No one here has said otherwise. >Waymo's issue is more that they have simple problems like stopping on the interstate So, wait, whataboutism? You're moving the goalposts again? You should go read and watch the reports of Teslas getting stuck on surface streets, especially including the most recent one where Tesla had the "driver" get out on a busy road, walk around the car, and get into the drivers seat - because they couldn't make the car drive on it's own.
> I do, but most people who take robotaxis don't. Wait, more moving of goalposts? Are you just throwing any random idea you have at the wall hoping something will stick and you can feel like your messiah Musk has been saved? >Even if accidents with deer going through windshields are reduced by 80%, that's more than enough Oh look, more moving goalposts.
> More data cant be more dangerous by default. Sure it can, if it's not used properly. All data isn't equal. Any model merging different data sources needs to understand the value of each data source and the conditions under which that data quality varies (glare, rain, snow, etc). That being said, the obvious problem at Tesla is they've been working toward vision only for years now - their models aren't designed around other sources.
Ngl i noticed a precipitous drop in performance after they bricked my radar back in 21 or whenever it was. And shit was just getting worse since. Didn't feel safe using autopilot anymore by the time I sold last year. Shit was constantly making close misses, drifting lanes when it got confused (which was a lot), driving super close to barriers for no reason, so on. Also, they made the steering wheel so needy that it basically defeats the purpose. Not white-knuckling the thing resulted in constant scolding and needing to pull over to restart. And if you held just a fraction too hard, autopilot would disengage on a hair trigger, most often for me in the middle of bend where a late response could be fatal. Teslas been highly enshittified.
> lidar also has poor visibility > lidar is less effective at high speed No one is using just LIDAR, AFAIK. Other vehicles have LIDAR, cameras, and radar. Each is used under various conditions. >there is no evidence that tesla cameras do not see well enough Unless there's evidence that they do see well enough, your point is useless.
> less effective than lidar at low speed > > > > You can't see nearly as far Everything is less effective at high speeds, it's the nature of a control system. >Then you have lidar at high speed + medium to heavy rain. At that point I bet there is no advantage Based on what? You clearly don't know anything about autonomous driving, but you're comments lead me to believe you don't know anything about computer controls systems at all. Or ML. Or any associated tech/software. What is any bet you make worth? There are a lot of experienced engineers working on autonomous driving. One company is going vision only, while *every other company* is using multiple sensors. The company going vision only is doing so at the direction of their barely tech literate CEO (don't be fooled by what he claims, look at what he's actually done and his actual experience), not their engineers (and that's right from the CEO himself), despite hiring said engineers for... you know, engineering.
yes redundancy in data will build safer systems. It takes some humility to understand that.
moving what goalpost?
no it can't. Because not only does it add more weight but tesla's main sources of noise were road and wind noise. These double paned windows had barely any affect on how quiet the car is Older teslas (with double paned windows but otherwise noisy) are only quiet at low road speeds (stopped at a red light). After that they are noisy All the noise was road and wind noise. Tesla fixed the issue in refreshed model 3/Y by sealing the areas of wind noise better and putting sound dampening material mainly in the wheel wells and trunk These were actually the mods that older tesla owners discovered after many would sound dampen the entire car with no success
Are you the only person on the planet who missed the lobbed ball into a cybertruck window on stage?
Elon claims Lidar/Radar make highway driving unsafe. . . HAHAHAHA! What a loser \#1) Safe driving is based on good sensors giving us good data, Lidar giving bad data means we need to fix the sensor. and help make sure it is going to accurately give data to the Waymo Robotaxi. \#2) Safe driving is also based on Software interpreting the data correctly to make good and safe decisions, as long as the sensors give good (or good enough data) the software should be able to correctly drive the car \#3) IF Radar/Lidar is truly unsafe as freeway sensors (like Ultrasonics\*) Waymo could just. . . Turn off the Lidar/Radar in those situations. . . therefore not making them "unsafe". Long story short. . . You have to be a religious Elon zealot, or completely unfamiliar with computers and digital sensors to believe a line of thinking that is this stupid. \* Note (Not an expert opinion on USS): Ultrasonic sensors go about 13ish feet range, while it could help prevent sideswiping. . . it is not really a good sensor for freeway driving as you need to see much further ahead. I think there are high level USS that go like 40 feet, but again, not really good for freeway driving, and that's okay because Waymo is on the freeway and they basically use Lidar and Vision only, which is perfectly fine for the way we design freeways. Onramp, other cars, speed limits, wide lanes, lane markers, offramps. . . Honestly, I think a vision only approach for freeways truly can meet Elon's dream of being truly autonomous, use Radar and Lidar to help in limited vision situations for additional safety.
Newsflash, teslas can’t drive on highways either… or anywhere
what does lobbed ball have to do with anything? the window cracked It cracked because the corner of the glass was weakened from smacking the car with a hammer That's normal of glass
Tesla drive on highways as L2 vehicles. This is completely different from Waymo L4 vehicles driving on highways. Musk is always trying to mislead Tesla fan boys that Teslas are L4 vehicles.
It’s a feature not a bug the deer were over populated? /s
Tesla has a safety protocol with auto locked out during any emergency. That pairs with self incineration process can ensure no passenger or evidence gets out alive
Cheaper than extra sensor and lidars
There is absolutely no reason other than Musk’s ego that cameras, radar and LiDAR can’t all work together. The fact is a camera only system is not good enough and any system that incorporates all three will always perform better than a system based on cameras alone.
Sensor fusion was solved, what, like 100 years ago?
Except they excel at unnecessary braking!
It’s a joke that he turns around the storyline and people are actually following such posts. At this point, Tesla is autonomous lv. 2 and lagging behind other companies like BMW, VW or Mercedes. There is no way that Tesla gets permission to go Lv. 5 autonomous with the current vehicles unless there is a push from the Trump administration overwriting experts‘ judgement. And I doubt that there will be. And even if they do, I am curious about how they will handle liability in case of an accident.
Someone sure sounds like an idiot but it’s not Musk 😀
40 feet should be more than fine in the Bay Area, lmao
You’re half right. He’s a liar but that bastard seems to have asbestos pants.
Yeah, unlikely he just wanted to make them safer at the exact same time as the automotive chip shortage affecting chips and electronics for automotive radar and ultrasonic.
Yeah waymo doesn't have the cult behind them. Tesla survived a Nazi salute with Elon literally backing all them fascists into power and their stock isn't 0. Let anyone at waymo/google try any of that BS and every single thing nukes even if the tech itself it's good.
He made such a big deal about it and can’t admit he was wrong.
We have a guy in Elon Musk with a lengthy record of making bold promises, failing to deliver for years, then when he's finally called out making even bolder promises he won't be able to keep, rinse and repeat ad nauseum. Yet people continue believing his new promises. Humans drive visually, because we have a very large neural processing unit between our ears which extracts a massive amount of information from what we see, and a lifetime of driving experience to help decide what to do - and we still get in accidents from time to time. For Tesla's camera-only autodrive to work his AI would pretty much have to be smart enough to decide it didn't feel like being a fucking taxi driver and refuse to pick up fares. And this guy who hasn't been able to deliver that self-driving car that's been right around the corner for a decade now is going to build autonomous AI humanoids fit for general tasks - orders of magnitude more complex than the thing he can't get working. Right. Elon Musk is just a guy who's read a lot of sci-fi and knows how to scam investors by playing on their optimism about future tech.
Elon Musk is very stupid.
Elon Musk is nepo baby conman, just like Trump. Anyone listening to him is a stupid sucker.
Dude will simply never be able to admit he was wrong and it looks like he imposed that view on Tesla and set them up to fail at a critical moment.
Teslas vision based system might be "good enough", but why reject enhanced systems like lidar, thermal, radar, night vision etc. One of the main reasons musk doesn't like it is cost based not for technical reasons.
Wild how he keeps digging himself deeper in this no-lidar hole. He could have Tesla pivot right now and save the whole robotaxi venture but he’s just too stubborn?
I’ve seen Waymo in Austin on MoPac with two people upfront. It looked like a safety driver and a data monkey. They got on at S MoPac & 360 and got off at 5th/Cesar Chavez. So a hop. No where near prime time, either.
"People don't shoot lasers out of their eyes to drive," Musk wrote, sharing an old clip from Tesla's 2019 Autonomy Day. "Just try Tesla self-driving today, which just uses cameras and AI, and you will understand." Musk posted that on X when people tested tesla on the 'Willie Coyote wall'. Guy is obviously delusional.
Bet the car didn’t stop because it wasn’t deer season and it didn’t want the owner busted for poaching. I’ve seen deer demolish F150s so the dude is lucky.
Womp womp. Statistically speaking they are causing less deaths per mile driven. Thats called moving forward. There will be mistakes but they shouldnt pay 350mil because someone died while someone wasnt watching the road. They clearly tell you to pay attention and keep your hands on the wheel. If you choose not to honestly fuck off.
This is a guy who loudly proclaim that he is rank 4 in diablo and top player in PoE 2 game. Only to play like total newbie that didnt complete the tutorial when he actually play the game. And become laughing stock of gaming community.
💯
Highway driving is easy mode. I can drive to my parents home semi sleep mode(yeah dangerous)
The nazi is an idiot
I worked on synthetic vision for the F22 in the early 80s. Edge conditions was a mantra. “Death lives on the edges” was the train of thought and the result was as close to perfect as humans can get in four years. The F35 is supposedly another level of unworldly vision. Head tracking and everything!
Humans do not rely on vision alone to drive. We use stereoscopic vision, hearing, proprioception (sense of where our body and limbs are in space, extending to the body of the car itself), our vestibular sense (Sense of balance/orientation), and our somatosensory system (sense of touch) all in concert to control a vehicle. On the computational side we also have object permanence and nearly instantaneous extrapolation from limited datasets (Think being able to tell what a sign is even if it's mostly obscured, or knowing where a car went when you saw it for a half second before it went behind a truck), not to mention our ability to, on an unconscious level, anticipate the actions of other drivers and pedestrians on the road. Sensor fusion is the only way for a computer system to gain at least some of the needed capabilities. LIDAR, RADAR, Sonar, Cameras, Microphones, and Accelerometers are all needed for a successful autonomous vehicle. Also, I think that fElon watched too much Knight Rider in the 80's, but didn't understand that K.I.T.T. wasn't just using visual information to drive itself. It had a full suite of sensors as well, they just weren't talked about all that much, but if you paid attention you would see on screen displays and buttons labeled with the various sensor names. And some of them are mentioned in the dialog as well.
It is unbelievable how many supposedly smart Wall Street types have been completely conned by Elon’s BS. From ARK on down they’ve fallen for the Elon Con. Now they know it so they’re pumping the stock in the hope that they can salvage 30% of what they’re in for.
Musk is so full of shit. He made a calculated mistake relying only on cameras. No amount of con job BD wil fox Tesla's failed Self-Driving system. How many more deaths do we need before he backs down?
What about all the lawsuits from the relatives of the people killed by Tesla's failed automation already?
>Musk also doesn't seem to be aware that Waymos do utilize vision cameras... Even worse for Tesla, Waymo uses more camera's than Robotaxi does. Waymo has 13 camera's vs Teslas 8, and on top of that it also has 6 radar and 4 lidar sensors.
All because it's SUPER important that he's "the best" at everything. He would have earned more respect if he legitimately played the games as a newb. BUT the richest man in the world had to appear to be perfect at video games because that would make him so amazingly cool. **The 55 year old man is so stupid that he streamed his pathetic gameplay and figured that it would impress gamers**
Tesla never removed features because of money. They always have thoroughly evaluated the importance of every feature before removing it... just to save money. See - lumbar control, turn signal stalk, (never having) rain sensor, etc
Have thought highways would be easier to solve than city streets? I love motorways.
What’s the point of having a self driving vehicle reliant on the same perception as humans? Isn’t the idea to reduce accidents and deaths, surely the addition of 3d LiDAR etc is a massive benefit over 2d cameras and software…
Yea that makes sense - more sensors make the cars less safe! 🤡
It's because of the takes i read in reddit posts like this one that i'm on my way to the bank to borrow more money to invest in Tesla. Thanks to you guys, the world is somehow still not aware of how much we are beating the competition. Your skepticism will make me rich, I am forever grateful🙏🏿😙
Musk previously would claim that cameras were good enough to drive just as good as a human. Now he’s saying adding lidar/radar is dangerous while other companies are successfully implementing the tech. But here’s the thing most people don’t want tech that’s “good enough”. If I’m trusting human lives to an AI pilot I want it to be better than a human by as much as possible. Yes I want the redundant safety 3 types of input. I want my driver to be able to use sensors that I don’t have to pick the safest actions.
More data can absolutely be dangerous for machine learning. Or in self driving cars it can be, it can be damaging for the results of any LLM or AI model. Overfitting is a significant roadblock in progression. And it hurts new scenarios because it's over trained on specific parameters. For self driving cars, you'd want an equal distribution or a correction for the large amount of data in busy streets vs limited data on some back roads to make sure it handles all of them correctly.
Digging heels in on a bad decision. Way to go, Elmo!
there is difference between garbage data and supplementary data with sensors added specifically to get that data. you can parrot Musk all you wish it still will never change the fact he is saying Waymo essentially sucks because of multi sensor approach, which is a flat out lie or comment made out of sheer incompetence.
That’s a big reason though. And cost delta right now is very substantial. Musk is betting that advanced AI can overcome limitations of the camera only detection by adding prediction and more advanced human behavior. If he can develop ‘good enough’ full autonomy car that does not cost more to produce then a regular one, this is going to be huge. Waymo design right now looks like something cooked up in a science laboratory and adds up to $100k to each car, which would make it very difficult to scale beyond limited deployments.
I'm not parroting Musk, nor am I saying multisensor data is bad. I'm explaining that more data can be harmful.
You couldn’t pay smart people to sit in a Tesla auto driving car. Imagine saying only vision is better than all your senses combined. Jesus
But the Waymo’s are on the highways in Arizona already….
But you’re explaining it in the context of an AI model, and a model that can’t have its system state tracked and defined for any observation and action is fundamentally incompatible with safety-critical systems design.
Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Double paned would be the side glass. Every vehicle's front windshield is made of laminated glass. Things can still go through laminated glass, or buckle the entire windshield into the car and into whoever's sitting in the front seats.
Highways are easier... if you have someone sitting in the driver's seat ready to take over for edge cases, like a pedestrian running across the highway; albeit that's an oddity. Otherwise, the sensors need the ability to see far out ahead of the car to spot and have enough time to react to pedestrians / animals / weird fringe cases. That said, I imagine Waymo prioritized city roads in bigger denser cities over highway because that's where the lion's share of taxi fares come from. Tesla prioritized highways so they include highway ADAS in their consumer vehicles.
The car owner was responsible for 2/3rds of the accident responsibility. Tesla was only responsible for 1/3rd. The court payout reported is only for 1/3rd of the damages. The car owner settled for a much lower payout... obviously... he's not a billionaire. Tesla OTOH, a company with tens of billions of dollars in the bank chose not to settle, fought it in court, and lost. This decision will no doubt of course be appealed, and the payout likely reduced.
It's just dumb. Even IF there were Sensor Contention, the Lidar/Radar should supercede because they actually measure distances. Tesla has neither of them in the current lineup.
After claims it was almost indestructible. Claims you're taking at face value in your earlier posts when all the evidence says that he (and you) are full of shit.
Dear Mr. Musk, Tesla Robotaxis can't even drive backwards to avoid UPS trucks backing up. So who gives a shit about what yohhavtto say. Besides, of it keeps me alive to take the longer route, F your greed at the expense of my damn life.
Tesla's misnamed Robotaxis (that have to date taxied precisely Zero people from the general population) can't even handle a UPS reversing. So, I don't give a shit what this dude has to say. And yes, I'm comfortable with taking a minorly slower route to ensure my life.
Yes. They've been making minor freeway adaptations. Musk is a compulsive liar, an old school used car salesman but selling new cars with used car salesman fluff and intentional deception. He's a living cliché.
These cars will never self drive safely in a meaningful way. This is basically a giant pump and dump scheme.
🤡
Can someone explain to me how this could make them MORE dangerous???
Growth mindset amirite bros
It's rly funny seeing Tesla bet against Google. Google yall.
It's what a dunce
Yes. I’ve seen them in Phoenix on the freeways with nobody in them for like a year.
They also use radar. I think both Lidar and radar would help, because deer are super hard to see when they are on the side of the road. They could see something. Had a colleague who drove a car and a deer flew into her windshield. She thinks the deer tried to jump the car but didn't realize the speed the car was going. She never saw the deer until it hit the windshield. Lidar or radar might have seen that, though whether this could stop in time would be an issue.
Musk, Thiel, Trump, and hillbillies like Vance are collaborating to start the Dark Ages II.
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