Serious question: Is there any way to cut through politics and sensationalist media to determine the truth about Tesla's suitability as a safe family vehicle?

No

I could, and do, talk about this a lot. The sort answer, since I don't have time at the moment, is "no", there is no way to objectively state how safe the vehicles are, at least as far as the adas systems are concerned.

Ok OP, the first comment has answered your question. We do have a lot of extra time now for additional questions. Is there anything else you feel like we should address?

It’s tech isn’t cutting edge and it’s not reliable for the price point. Then the stock.. well the stock is grossly overpriced from where book value is

Most of the safety data that comes out of Tesla is highly suspect. They’ve been caught manipulating data multiple times.

From the sounds of things having a peer reviewed study wouldn’t make a dent in their thinking. They have made up their mind and seek information that confirms their opinion. And no such information exists. Though they might find tesladeaths.com of interest.

I’m going to take a wild stab and say that tesla produced media and figures are not as reliable as safety studies published by academic sources, engineers, and publications of record. While every person highlighting these probably doesn’t have completely clean motivations: when you actually look at the sourcing data for one versus the other, the story is pretty clear that Tesla has some well documented preventable safety issues. That being said; The fact that Elon wildly lies about all his non-business activities, am i just suppose to assume that all his business activists just happen to be fine?

"Is there any way to ignore all the stuff that affects everyone's lives and the active Nazi saluting CEO and AI and the blatant lies about autonomous taxi service and focus on cars?"

Isn’t there an agency that measures safety ratings for cars? Wouldn’t that be neutral?

I feel like if you have to ask then why bother, there are choices

Top reply.

Kind of. Crash safety is measured, but that only tells you about your chance of survival if you get into a crash. It doesn't tell you whether Teslas are more likely to get into an accident in the first place (they are) or weather you're likely to die in your Tesla after surviving the accident (you are).

Tesla is low quality, both software and hardware, they've more recalls than any other brand. I would never recommend it.

Personal anecdotes: Bro in law bought 3 Teslas, one Model X for his wife, and two Model 3s for his teen kids. They all got in separate accidents within 4 months of each other within their respective car. Model X got Tboned. One Model 3 got rear-ended because the teen hard braked for a yellow light. The other Model 3 was also a rear-end crash.  Not their fault, but they could have been prevented. Basically, they weren't fully used to driving EVs with their insane acceleration and deceleration, so I think their bad timing and reaction led to accidents.  The kids got whiplash pain/symptoms. Insurance premiums skyrocketed.

A way? Yeah, use your fucking head. Think. Should cut right through. If you still have trouble, you probably shouldn't be operating a vehicle with your family in it in the first place.

Read consumer reports and other evaluations of the car by independent parties. Or just look at how many accidents over number of drivers.

In terms of the structure and mandatory safety features of Teslas as compared to others I would probably check European testing (EuroNCAP) which is truly independent. When it comes to ADAS features I just wouldn't trust Tesla at all.

A general advice is usually you shouldn't trust a company that made new owners sign a NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) saying owners can't say or write bad things about their Tesla experience. I'm surprised they were able to do this since 2012 and a judge deemed it illegal a few years ago.

If there is any risk, why take it when driving is the riskiest activity most people undertake

No amount of contrary facts, statistical reports, evidence or proof is going to change the mind of somebody who WANTS to believe

You can get fatal crash data from the NHTSA FARS database. It doesn't have miles driven but you can take a look at % from the person DB as a proxy. Every car/person involved in the accident gets counted whether or not the fatality occurred in that car. 2023 data shows Model 3s were involved in 141 people dying with the Tesla occupants dying in 32 of them for a 22.6% chance of death within the Tesla. Something known for safety like the Volvo XC90 had 19 fatality crashes with a total of 1 fatality in the Volvo working out to 5.3%. This kind of assumes you don't give a shit about the people outside your car which is kind of true. The Volvo being a 7 passenger also gets a bit of an advantage since it can be a 7 passenger vehicle so if you had 7 people inside and ran down a cyclist, the Volvo still has a 0%.

Except that Tesla self certifies as I understand it so...

The car is as safe as any other modern car with collision avoidance systems. The hype about it being “extra safe” is definitely overblown, and FSD is only safer if you’re already an absolutely awful driver to begin with, apparently. But if they’re operating it like a normal car and driving defensively - which you’d expect with two newborns - then they should be fine. The marginal difference between an accident that might seriously hurt them in a Tesla vs the same accident while driving a different vehicle is probably impossible to calculate. Ultimately parents allow their kids all sorts of risks - skipping vaccines, biking without helmets, unmonitored social media access, etc. This car is probably not the hill worth dying on.

There are ways to objectively measure just how unsafe Tesla’s vehicles are, but fElon is such an effective obfuscator that it’s impossible to state facts without the Stan Army popping up and spouting the same lines of bullshit that have been used to defend Tesla for years.

Just look at the safety reports that are compiled using real world accident statistics. There's nothing "sensationalist" about math unless you've made up your mind to label everything that doesn't fit your predetermined belief as "sensationalist." One of the first things that stands out with the Model 3 is a glaring extreme between safety tests and real world results that is hard to explain. When it comes to independent third party safety testing (i.e. in a controlled environment using test dummys vs actual real world accidents), the Model 3 itself is at worst above average and at best has done extremely well (like 5 of 5 stars) both in the US and in Europe. Ratings do tend to say it's a very safe car. Yet when it comes to real world accidents, there is a nagging fact that they have a higher likelihood of having a fatality (like twice the average). There is no easy explanation for why this is this either. The obvious thought tends to point a finger at the people driving them. It's general believed that Tesla drivers put so much trust in the technology they just aren't as attentive behind the wheel as they need to be to avoid or minimize an accident to keep it from being fatal when the technology fails them. Others question if hiding so many driving tasks inside a touch screen might also lead to real world distractions. Probably also doesn't help that these cars are known for extremely quick acceleration and not necessarily behaving or being operated like other cars. But the fact of the matter is, one of the highest rated cars in safety tests is also one of the deadliest and nobody really knows why. My personal hang-up with Teslas has always been that when they get into an accident (regardless of why or who was at fault) and the battery is damaged, disabled or shuts off, only the front doors will open easily because the back doors require electricity to open normally. Now let's talk about children in the back... If the adults in the front seats are incapacitated or dead, the children in the back will need to know (in advance) how to find and activate a hidden emergency release cable in order to open the back doors. There are videos of these online (so you can see the process) and every model is slightly different. But know this is not as simple as using the handle like in other cars and you're asking a child to remember how it's done when they might be scared, in shock or even injured. Other ways to get out of the back of the car would be for the child to be strong enough to break the glass to exit out the window or climb over the occupants of the front seat to exit from the front doors, which would have to be seriously traumatizing for a child. Battery fires are different but (edit: can be) just as deadly as gasoline fires. One of the biggest issues with EVs (all brands) is that their fires burn very hot and are not as easy for a fire department to extinguish as gasoline especially if the battery was at or near a full charge. Hope that helps.

It's a meme brand...

One of the biggest problems with claims such as “10X safer” is that they don’t measure the same things you and I might measure. For example, if it’s a mistake while parking, or a goof that didn’t involve a police report, or no humans were injured, then incidents aren’t tabulated and you get a false sense of security. Research the articles on those types of reports. And research Tesla lobbying the government to reduce the types of accident data incidents the government collects.

If you gave me a Tesla today, I'd donate to NPR, unused. Shit cars, shit service, and random OTA updates? I'll stick with plain Jane cars that I can get 300,000 miles on.

Good luck with that.

Insurance industry says Teslas have the highest accident rate (second highest, as I recall, was Ram - a brand popular with young male drivers). That doesn't really say much about the safety of the vehicle, nor whether the accidents are due to some aspect of the vehicle versus some characteristic of the typical Tesla driver. Mostly it just says that if you're an insurance company, you should charge more (quite a lot more) for a Tesla. OTOH, something is causing all those Tesla accidents, and for my part I'd rather have a vehicle which was not so accident prone.

Not currently recommended by Consumer Reports. Despite its strong performance and long driving range, issues—especially with braking performance, controls, and ride quality—have held it back from earning a CR recommendation. Build quality & reliability: Owners reported issues with loose trim, glass defects, rattles, system glitches—factors that led CR to remove the recommendation in February 2019 Major concern should be what happens when it breaks down or requires body work. This is a question you can answer by making some phone calls in your local area. Being without a car for more than 30 days due to a lack of support is crippling for a family.

It is one of the most dangerous vehicles for its occupants. Musk got good safety scores by fudging data - primarily by including all sizes of vehicles in the comparison.

Generally speaking, EVs are pretty safe in crashes. They have a very low center of gravity and more crumple zones than other cars due to the frunk. That being said, I wouldn’t trust any driver assist system from Tesla, and I wouldn’t give them a dime.

Your issue is not the politics or sensationalism. Your problem is that they have already bought the car. The ship has sailed. The horse has left the stable. Stop trying to convince them of anything, they will not listen. Outside of a home a car is the next largest purchase. What are you hoping to accomplish? Just stop.

If you feel getting trapped in a vehicle and burning to death is ok I say go for it.

I’m just going to put this out there - the safest vehicle is the one that has a skilled, alert driver in it. Unless the car is on the verge of exploding, the operator’s skill matters more than the machine.

Ironically that also applies to “FSD” as an operator. TBH, if you aren’t expect to rely on it, Tesla’s vehicles are no more dangerous than any other car. The only real issue is that they can be more difficult to operate because of an over-reliance on touch rather than mechanical / haptic controls for many operations…

If musk quit tomorrow and they fired the whole board I wouldn't buy the stock until the price corrected, maybe a few years after that if they turn things around. I wouldn't buy a car for a few years either until they get some leadership and new not 10+ year old models and an actual path to self driving instead of vibes. I would buy solar/battery if the price was right because that's good stuff and competitive tech. There I removed musk from the equation.

1) It is a good car as long as you use it as a car. Crash test data is good, it is extremely reliable unless you end up with a factory lemon and service used to be stellar, but is now a much more "service center" dependent, probably because Musk laid off so many people in the last 2 years. 2) The safety issues with Tesla all relate to people using either FSD/Full Self Driving, FSD Supervised, or Autopilot. Autopilot is similar to other "adaptive cruise control" systems in other cars. FSD/FSD Supervised WILL kill you. I think if they had named their Alpha Test software something that didn't make people think it worked on its own or if the CEO didn't claim it was safer than a regular driver already, Tesla would have avoided a lot of the crashes caused by people trusting it did what Musk said it did. I've only driven with FSD on 2 road trips with friends and both had 30+ instances where we would have crashed if the driver hadn't taken over. I also don't think "FSD turned control back over to the driver before the crash" is specific enough. Sometimes it would be confused by rain and beep at you, then you would be in charge, other times we would be going around a curve, it would see a dark patch of highway and you'd get a beep at the same time the steering wheel control was returned to you. Since FSD was holding the curve and returned control to you the steering wheel would start straightening out before you could actually do anything with it. Even I am explaining that badly... I want to emphasize that sometimes there is not enough time after the FSD disengages to prevent the crash it caused, but since it disengaged Tesla will claim wit wasn't an FSD/FSD Supervised crash. I'm convinced Tesla has more trouble with autopilot because they tell people its as good as FSD, but only for highways. Other manufacturers have been consistently clear about the limitations of their adaptive cruise control and if Tesla customers thought of Autopilot the same way Ford Customers thought of Blue Cruise Tesla and Ford would have the same accident rates. 3) Musk is a Nazi. There was the Nazi salute, telling Germany's far right AFD party they shouldn't be ashamed of the holocaust anymore, agreeing with racist and antisemitic tweets consistently over years, re-platforming Nazis after he bought Twitter, programming Grok to promote the false claims of white genocide in South Africa to users who asked it literally any question, programming Grok to give antisemetic answers and call itself "MechaHitler" just this week. You can buy a used Tesla and put an anti-Elon bumper sticker on it, but as someone with kids do you want to give money to a guy who will then spend that money making the USA a fascist country? Imagine explaining that to your kids when they are in their teens.

Our tesla has not worked since day one nor been fixed properly since purchase during cOvid ffs. It is dangerous and a total liability, here in the UK in waiting on the ombudsmen as we don't have the lemon law here.

Not what OP is looking for, but it’s the fastest car you can get for the price. I came from a bimmer and the performance and handling is unmatched in this price range. Everything else, though.. eh

As a straight up car the Model Y is incredibly safe (Just don't trust the self driving tech and you're good.) That being said, don't support Nazis.

There used to be unbiased 3rd party ratings of vehicles. Now they are all paid shills of the car companies. So no.

> From the sounds of things having a peer reviewed study wouldn’t make a dent in their thinking. This is such a strange assumption, clearly shared by most of this community. I highlighted sensationalism where I see it and stated the points which have shaped my skepticism and distrust, but I would not have taken the trouble of putting this together if I was merely looking to reinforce the view I already held. I was looking for alternative, informed data and opinions which are not influenced by the algorithm bubbles which I acknowledged I am clearly in. I initially posted this to r/neutralpolitics because r/neutraltalk is defunct, but it was understandably not political enough for the former and they redirected me here. I appreciate those who did not jump to their own conclusions about me and what I would do with the information shared here.

> 2023 data shows Model 3s were involved in 141 people dying with the Tesla occupants dying in 32 of them for a 22.6% chance of death within the Tesla. Something known for safety like the Volvo XC90 had 19 fatality crashes with a total of 1 fatality in the Volvo working out to 5.3%. This is an interesting data point and valuable insight, thank you for highlighting it.

Musk's preference for cutting corners makes Tesla a very undesirable vehicle. Design engineers know how much stress a machine part can take. They know how thick a piece of metal needs to be. They know how many bolts are needed to hold two parts together. The math and science already exist. When Musk is pretending to be an engineer, he goes out on the floor and tells his people, "you don't need 4 bolts there, redesign it so it only uses two." There is a reason Tesla is the most recalled brand of car. The reason is Elmo. He is going to cause deaths.

Honestly this is a great write up and extremely helpful, indeed. Thank you for taking the time to evaluate the points in favor and against. > But the fact of the matter is, one of the highest rated cars in safety tests is also one of the deadliest and nobody really knows why. This does help to explain the gross discrepancy between the two diametrically opposed camps of opinion. So, tests in a controlled environment seem to suggest at least average or even exceptional performance but real world statistics appear to conflict with those findings. It's the complexity and reliance of the computer system that concerns me as to the possibility of glitches, along with how difficult it would be for the driver to manually override errant behavior. And the back door issue you mention is troubling, as well. The battery fires sound like a potentially serious issue, but it depends on how likely they are to catch in the first place. At the end of the day, if the car is at least as safe as other cars they might have then I have little room to object. Do you happen to be aware of any peer-reviewed analysis of real world accidents which was not funded or pressured by powerful interests to massage the data?

The vehicle isn't mine, which you would know if you could read more than a few sentences. :)

If you are looking for objective safety information there is definitely going to be incoherence of car design vs real world safety. Why? Most Teslas have high horsepower/high torque. A better real world study would compare safety ratings for cars of similar performance ratings. I suspect high horsepower cars are driven differently than lower horsepower ones, leading to skewed results. I own 2 Teslas and a Honda Odyssey. Guess what? I trust my Odyssey 100%. Why? I drive it far more responsibly than my Teslas.

> I would probably check European testing (EuroNCAP) which is truly independent. This is a good thought, thank you for the suggestion.

I appreciate the calm and balanced assessment. I think the vehicle they drive on a daily basis is a bit more critical than the other items you list which is why I believe it worth doing due diligence, but I don't plan to be dying on it.

I haven't said a word to them about it. However I have more time to look into these things, and if I uncovered very strong evidence that the vehicle posed significant risk I would pass the information forward for them to do with as they wish. A car is a significant purchase but not a life commitment.

That is true. Electric in general is fast with that instant torque lol

> When I raise concerns about the safety record, both he and my dad immediately respond with, "Tesla has the BEST safety record, by far," apparently drawing on reports made by the company, itself, or media that pops up in their own algorithm streams. I was talking about them.

(Mitch Hedberg voice)he has already cased deaths....but he is going to, too

I’m 95% sure that people who have bought teslas recently are not going to be receptive to any negative information being presented to them. I have friends who bought was back when musk was a democrat and even they are tired of people talking to them about their car. There are way more dangerous things on the road. Do you check out other friends’ tire treads and lecture them on safety? Honestly, the world would be a better place without Tesla, but you need to pick your battles.

as others have suggested the car itself performs well in a crash and has good safety ratings...but there are some problems first is that it seems more likely to get into a crash than other cars, whether it is due to overreliance on FSD, unintuitive control layout, or just the insane performance that the car is capable of; at the end of the day, the reason does not matter that much. Second after a crash, the emergency door latches being hidden and have resulted in multiple deaths so that is something to consider. Third the difference between a lithium fire and gasoline fire is important to the firefighters trying to put it out, but is completely irrelevant to the passengers, either one will kill them just as fast. if you are not outside the car by the time it has been enveloped by fire, you are dead in either one. finally, this argument is not likely to be something you will convince them on, so it will only sour your relationship. fight about sports....leave politics and religion out of it.

Why? Nazi is not a deal breaker enough for you?

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts and personal experience with this, these are good points. > Since FSD was holding the curve and returned control to you the steering wheel would start straightening out before you could actually do anything with it. Even I am explaining that badly... I want to emphasize that sometimes there is not enough time after the FSD disengages to prevent the crash No, you explained this well and it does help to illuminate why crashes would be more likely. It may be fine if the driver is good, whether that is the car or the human, but trading off the controls at a moment's notice in the middle of driving would be hazardous in any circumstance. I hope they can find ways to improve this hand off, if it's going to become a permanent feature. As to your third point, I'm in wholehearted agreement and it's why I would never personally be able to buy into the brand while he remains the face of it. That said, I left it out of my concerns both in an effort to remain objective and because my brother is better able to separate personality politics from the product. Nonetheless, I appreciate your summary of the evidence to this point, because it does matter. Money to Tesla directly funds Musk's ideals, and those ideals are beyond reprehensible. I will personally never have kids, which is one reason I'm especially protective of my niece and nephew. I try to keep my opinion to myself without very firm reasons to do otherwise but, truth be told, I'm hoping that if we are still in this situation a few years from now, the kids will back me up on that point and be less reserved in doing so.

Interesting. Good to know everyone was okay. At least they can hold up in a fender-bender, it sounds like.

Tesla is adversarial to customers. Choose wisely.

Fair enough, I appreciate the clarification. I know them well and maintain some degree of confidence they would be able to update their thinking in the face of sufficient evidence and motivation, but it's true that they are invested in the company which makes that significantly more complicated and challenging.

Everyone I know who owns a Tesla loves it. Everyone I know who owns a Tesla would not use FSD in its current form even if it was free. Everyone I know who owns a Tesla will not buy another one until Elon is divested from the company. Everyone I know would buy a second Tesla the minute Elon has divested from the company... but in the mean time they're all looking at other EVs. Sounds like you have good judgement and are motivated to help your family. Again buying used is an OK option, but if your brother wants a new EV Hyundai is superior to the Model 3 and Y and Rivian is superior to the Model S and X. What they probably want is a Hyundai Ioniq 5 [https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/hyundai-ioniq-5-vs-tesla-model-y?slide=12](https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/hyundai-ioniq-5-vs-tesla-model-y?slide=12) I'm rooting for the kids to back you up too!

Thanks for your concern. By your analogy I've chosen to assess the stakes and consider the worthiness of a battle plan, but have not so far engaged. And no, I would not examine the treads of my friend's tires, but they would know if I thought they'd made an idiotic purchase just because we're those sort of friends.

Thanks so much, buddy. Really do appreciate your feedback on this. :)

Ok, this quote (below) is Google AI generated so I don't trust it quite like something written by a human (and it's quoting Teslarati which is absolutely bias in favor of Tesla) but I'm doing other things at the moment and it seems accurate based on what I've read in the past elsewhere so... "The 2025 Tesla Model 3 has earned a 5-star safety rating from Euro NCAP. It received high scores for adult occupant protection (90%), child occupant protection (93%), vulnerable road user protection (89%), and safety assist (87%), according to Teslarati. The Model 3 also achieved a Top Safety Pick+ designation from the IIHS in 2023. Furthermore, the NHTSA gave the 2023 Model 3 a 5-star overall safety rating, with 5 stars in frontal crash, side crash, and rollover tests." I mean those ratings are from pretty trustworthy sources (NCAP, IIHS and NHTSA) and up there with companies like Volvo and Mercedes which are kind of famous for safety and keeping their drivers alive. But again that's all testing in a controlled environment for rollover and front/side impact to see if the sensors on the crash dummies say if they were injured or killed in a controlled crash. The reports regarding actual real life fatalities is all just sources digging into fatality data from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration’s Fatality Analysis Reporting System. It's less bias and more just being done to gain attention/sell reports no different than companies that dig into federal crime data and then rate cities based on crime. Basically they have a formula that looks at number of deaths per total miles drive per model. Of what I've read, a Tesla hasn't been the most deadly model. Most of the deadliest models are either entry level compacts with low safety ratings (so no surprise) and sports cars that attract a certain kind of danger loving stupid buyer. And to be honest, those aren't news worthy either because we kind of expect to hear Corvette and Porsche 911 owners are killing themselves. But Tesla's high fatality rate (like 2 of their 4 models are Top 10 and the other two are high enough to make it the most dangerous overall brand) really does stand out BECAUSE it's in stark contrast with those car's safety ratings. Regardless of what you think of the news sources reporting on these reports, it's still really happening. And yes, Plaid and other higher performance models do attract some of the same danger loving drivers that a 911 might attract, but that's also a small percentage of Tesla buyers. There are SO MANY normal Model 3/Y drivers that look more like Honda drivers that you can't just point a finger at guys driving Plaids like idiots. For some reason people are legitimately dying DESPITE the car's safety ratings. The fact that the rear doors don't open WHEN the battery disconnects in an accident because Tesla didn't use a manual latch is my personal grief against the brand and I'm not the only one that feels that way. It's also worth noting that the CyberTruck is too new to be in the data these reports are based on and nothing tends to point to it making things better for Tesla in the ratings.

If you think NHTSA is objective, then their data shows that Tesla is at the very least suspicious and at most one of the more dangerous cars on the road. Otherwise, no, Tesla is very opaque about data that makes them look bad.

Thank you; I appreciate the write up, especially given the fact you were otherwise engaged, along with the caveats. I think your observations on the shortcomings of the various types of data available are well-founded. On one hand we have the company wanting to make sales, on the other we have media and researchers, alike, in need of clickbait to sell stories or enlist funding. The point is well taken, too, that while the appeal of Teslas may overlap with the buyers of more risk-seeking cars, it also brings in a much more mainstream, family-oriented demographic. From the conversations I've had with you and a couple of others in this thread, I get the sense that design issues like the rear door latch, driving controls being embedded within a layered computer interface, the atypical acceleration, breaking, and camera-reliance, along with the fact that the car can relinquish control in the middle of a precarious maneuver like turning... are major contributing factors to the real-life death toll, if not the whole story. I would prefer that the family had not taken the plunge on a Tesla at this stage, but I hope that insuring they are aware of these pitfalls may mitigate the unique risks associated with the brand. If they can exercise extra caution and vigilance as to the hazards at stake, perhaps they will be relatively as safe as they would in another model. Thank you, again, for contributing to the discourse. It has been an insightful conversation.

Get a BMW, wait for the Mercedes Benz or good ol’ Toyota. Safe, reliable and also now packed with decent infotainment. Price wise a Chinese would be the best but that’s not an option for you guys in the US.

I would not trust a guy claiming fails are part of the innovation game, so they learn from every blown up rocket. Do they also learn from every car crash?

do you mean invested as in they own stock? because if so it's a lost cause

wait what?!? I suppose i shouldnt be surprised at MLM tactics from a saffer but still, that's wild. Employees of the company yeah sure, I violently disagree with it but it doesn't surprise me. But owners? The fuck??

When I found out about the NDA back then, I was surprised it was still being enforced. Then someone reported it to the DOT or NHTSA and suddenly it was brought to a judge.

NCAP ratings, Tesla does well. Actual fatality rate, Tesla does poorly. The gap between these two points is could be due to a combination of factors: over reliance on FSD, suspension failures leading to loss of vehicle control, and unsafe design choices for things like door handles and steer by wire without proper redundancy.

👏👏👏

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