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Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.
Very deceptive to title autopilot labelers as "Tesla Autopilot Trainers" since someone could assume it was employee drivers. Also I didn't think FSD actually reads signs and then I saw the source is bs-insider, not reliable source.
Seems like something they’ve since corrected. Mine doesn’t ignore the signs anymore but it definitely used to.
I suggest using the interior camera to profile the driver to best fit the driving style to the driver’s demographic. /s I hope that’s not the reason my Tesla ran a red light.
It still does. It has map data of most intersections. The map tells it if it can make a right turn on red. If the data is wrong or missing, it will make a right turn on red. That said, the article is pretty much wrong on that point. For simplicity they trained the AI only speed limit, and stop signs. Every other sign type is via maps. It will be interesting to see what they do with the myriad of parking signs with cybercab, likely map data.
I deal with this all the time and have to disengage because of it. Please just follow the road signs.
Exactly. They weren't "trained to ignore" anything. They were simply ONLY trained to recognize Speed Limit, Stop, and Yield signs. That's all. No conspiracy.
I wish they would fix the speed limit sign detection. Mine will drop from 55 mph to **5 mph** ever time I pass a sign for Route 5. Conversely it’ll try to do 50 in a 30 on Route 50 🤦🏻♂️ It’s amazing to me that we have to go through this again. The same thing happened several years ago when they first started doing speed limit sign detection on HW2+ cars and it took months to fix. Now we’re starting all over again since 12.3.
The "funny" thing is they should have speed limit data for every road in the US. They likely have done so already. I guess you still need to slow down for temporary construction. It's a hard problem. One of the many reasons why it's far easier to offer autonomous rides in specific areas that are well mapped. You can constantly update those maps with data. It's a huge problem to try to constantly update the entire country.
Wish it would understand school zones.
Atlanta posts its minimum speed on huge signs that look like speed limit signs. So my car will slam on its brakes and drop to 45 like every few miles when it sees one of those signs.
But I don’t ignore those signs!
They used to use map based speed limits and it was terrible. Between roads they didn't have the data for, had the *wrong* data for, or when gps was inaccurately putting you on an adjacent road next to a highway, etc. it was problematic. Sign recognition is good, it's just irritating that we waited for this problem to be "solved" 2 years ago, only to come back again now. Unfortunately replacing code with the neural net stuff means they replaced whatever code fixed it.
Half my interventions these days are stopping illegal right on red turns.
They indicate limited visibility for oncoming traffic. Very bad idea to have a robot car ignore them
Chicago does this as well, but there are three separate versions that aren’t all on the same post, so the car alternates between three separate speed settings as it passes each sign. Super annoying.
That’s next level stupid IMO. In my area, people generally do not turn on red when not permitted.
That's incredibly dangerous behavior!
Are they footing the bill for tickets?
Yeah. You would think it was a priority to get it fixed, but we're worried about getting party tricks like 'ASS' out the door.
The last thing it needs really.
I've gotten a ticket for not seeing one of those signs that had just been erected (teehee erected)
They’re never easy to spot. But I always look specially for them. And I always get honked by the person behind me when I do stop.
Me too! My town has an intersection with two turn lanes on right that have red and green arrows and a white traffic sign that says ‘Right Turn Signal Only’. Nearly everyone blows past it when it’s a red arrow, except maybe me. I get honked at a lot in that intersection. Luckily it’s two lanes so all the Dodge Chargers, Rams, and Altimas can just get around me with enough time to flick me off and then go break the law.
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Every intersection with those signs around me also have red light cameras and you will get an automated ticket in the mail.
But yet I would bet the vast majority of other drivers do. It would be nice if somehow FSD learned to drive the way its owner drove.
As bad of an idea this is (wasn't the whole point for FSD to be 10x SAFER than human drivers, not just emulate their objectively poor decisions?), it would at least solve the question of whether the car owner or the car maker has liability in an FSD accident :)
>Starting January 1, 2025, right turns on red lights will be prohibited in Washington, DC. This change is due to the Safer Streets Amendment Act of 2022. Hope they code it for specific areas where "no turn on red" is the law, regardless of signs ETA Wiki info: >The few exceptions include New York City, where right turns on red are prohibited unless a sign indicates otherwise, and in both Washington, DC and Atlanta, Georgia, which the former will prohibit right turns on red in 2025 and the latter in 2026.
I'm on 12.5.1.3, it and no version prior, has ever stopped for a No Turn On Red sign for me.
If a driver education program only taught those signs and specially taught those were the only mandatory signs to respect, I would be okay with a headline saying that driver school trained drivers to ignore the other signs.
i thought it was supposed to handle every road and not rely on maps. But now it sounds like it ignores signs with preference to maps.
My bet is this is fake news. Remember when NHTSA forced Tesla to ensure Autopilot does not do a rolling stop? They would 100% do the same about “no turn on red” signs. Tesla isn’t stupid.
Interesting. I’m on 12.3.something and it does. As someone else pointed out, it’s possibly related to map data though.
My friend got a ticket for turning right at one of those signs. There’s a reason the signs exist.
FSD needs to perfectly follow the law by default. Red light cameras on some streets here enforce no turn on red.
Are you assuming impatient people's make and models?!
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It’s an absolutely stupid rule. Pretty sure most countries don’t have a rule that allows cars to ignore traffic lights if turning in a certain direction!
maybe in certain cities and states people dont follow these but where I live most people do.. i'd find it jarring if it ignored those signs
I noticed that FSD DNGAF about No Turn on Red signs during the month trial. Overall was impressed with a lot of FSD, but this was a glaring mistake.
I noticed that FSD DNGAF about No Turn on Red signs during the month trial. Overall was impressed with a lot of FSD, but this was a glaring mistake.
I sometimes ignore no u-turn signs. But I never ignore "no turn on red"
Then they should use HD map data if they're going to rely on map data for these...
Yeah, I have two places like this near me. One is a random sign with a 5 on it that makes it think the speed limit is 5. The other is actually a Speed Limit 35 sign, but with a pole not far in front of it. It's detected as 15 or 25 most of the time. (Or completely missed, and then the map data which correctly says 35 applies.)
New Tesla service: automated ticket payment with your card on file.
Not if the car can see better than you can - remember the car cameras are up front.
Tesla is trained by what real world drivers do in cars. So if a lot of people ignore those signs, so will FSD... but that is the best goal, to match how real world drivers react and treat road signage.
>FSD needs to perfectly follow the law by default. I think the key to your statement is "by default." Generally speaking, yes. But I suspect that a huge amount of driving...potentially over 50-75%, is clearly breaking the law in a socially acceptable or tolerated way. Rolling stop-sign stops? Tesla's already gotten wrist-slapped for that. But nobody's full-stopping on abandoned country roads. Driving over the speed limit on the highway? Ha, people even get tickets for complying but then being significantly slower than the flow of traffic. No turn on red? In a lot of places you're going to be stuck in that intersection over multiple red/green cycles because nobody will let you through. Crossing a line for an emergency vehicle? You must yield, but you're breaking another law by doing so. 4 way stop but a driver with right of way waves you forward? What's the LAW there? That it's OK to break the law if a civilian tells you to? There's a ton of stuff we do in everyday driving that makes "perfectly following the law" not only awkward/unnatural, but also often dangerous.
I know very few people who ignore those signs. That’s an easy ticket where I live.
The cameras looking to the side are in the b-pillar so quite far back, a couple of side looking cameras in front of the front wheels would have provided a better sideview for the car (and you if you could bring them up like a lot of cars has now)
you drive like a robot
Not assuming, just reporting on what I see in my town.
They could have been told that because there are other parts of the NN that read signs and they didn't want it duplicative.
It's about 50 50, many many many many people do ignore them, to be fair.
I’m not an unapologetic FSD fan, but this sounds ridiculous given the borderline over-adherence to full stop and creep behaviour at stop signs. Maybe for regular autopilot where it won’t stop for traffic lights for you.
Get some experience driving in the snow and tell me about the law again. It doesn’t have to be a lot of snow - just enough that the lines and signs are hard to read. The real rule of the road is a lot simpler than people make it out to be - don’t crash. Anything else is at best secondary.
Sounds pretty accurate to me TBH
If perfectly following the law is dangerous, then the law is wrong and should be changed. It will never change if people simply break the law because it isn't enforced. > 4 way stop but a driver with right of way waves you forward? What's the LAW there? That it's OK to break the law if a civilian tells you to? The law has almost nothing to do with this because it has a practical solution that we're all familiar with. One car starts inching forward, and if the other cars give way, then it goes.
please give us a option instead
I don't know much about FSD but if it doesn't even perform U-Turns, then why would Tesla care about no U-Turn signs in training?
I agree with that, but absolutely nobody would use the feature if that were the case. I'm more specifically talking about speed limits and rolling stops--if the car strictly adhered to these, people wouldn't use the feature. They just need customization so A) People who want to follow the law can do so, and B) They don't program the car to try and be one size fits all (because that one size tends to be "aggressive Californian driver").
You know what I find crazy?FSD has only 3 settings, 4 if you count minimal lane change. But the navigation settings, has tons of options and is very fleshed out. https://preview.redd.it/sqstwdtfolod1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=e76ec9d035b24ddbb1e539c8022749607b8142ce It would be amazing to be able to tweak more parameters for FSD and dial in your driving preferences. Like i want ‘aggressive’ on the city streets, and ‘chill’ on the highway, without the need to change it dynamically.
To me, it's just another disengagement.
Business Insider is just a clickbait mill. Any “news” from them can be safely assumed to be made up. Just downvote and move on, don’t give them clicks.
Those are designed to measure an abilities speed and start recording for cars that cant come to a complete stop. that's how they catch them. It won't catch a Tesla that stops properly then goes anyways. It's a dumb ass law if a person knows how to drive anyways. Should they be doing it. Nah. Will it catch them and give them tickets. Likely not.
This doesn't happen. It's been proven in studies that the safety pauses im causes provides bigger distraction. It's also been proven that winding a road enforces slowers speeds than a speed limit sign does. Laws are under the guise of safety when it's almost always just a lazy way to try to solve a problem than finding the root cause of a solution that changes with the times. They put a 4 way stop where a two way stop is by my house. The people would yield or cross the road and near miss accidents because of a blind spot. Instead of fixing the issue they put a 4 way stop in that just impedes traffic that didn't do anything wrong. This extrapolated at scale is why you can't use logic to solve autonomous driving.
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WTF are these laws? Most intersections turning right on red is fine. Geez.
Your first sentence says nothing except that you disagree with my comment, and then you spend the rest of the comment agreeing with what I said.
>No turn on red? In a lot of places you're going to be stuck in that intersection over multiple red/green cycles because nobody will let you through. What? How are you going to be blocked from turning when you have a green?
I don't think they are going to resort to that anytime soon. The entire point of their new Dojo cluster was to autolabel and turn captured images/footage into lane data and sign data. They aren't going to push HD maps to individual cars, which certainly can't handle it right now.
It's trained on the driving data from Tesla owners.
At list point the legal team must be making these decisions. They will be busy for years to come.
If you’re at a major intersection and traffic is backed up there’s a good chance you can’t make that turn on the green light. You shouldn’t just pull out and cut off the forward moving cars. You need to wait until the traffic slows to get in. What if it’s so busy it doesn’t slow? No right on reds is fine in most applications, but there is a time when it’s not feasible is all the other guy is saying.
I’m expecting those response/sensitivity curves some time down the line like a video game for some reactions.
They have a very wide field of vision, though. I'm not sure I agree that automated systems should break laws, but they can definitely see way more than the driver can.
Elon must love lawsuits or something. Half his lawyers must be billionaires themselves now.
I got a red light camera ticket for one of these in DC using FSD. I didn't see it either. $100 mistake...
Laws are paper. They’re conceptual. The real world is complex and full of gray areas. If we tried to make driving laws to cover every single exception, cover every single human behavior, it would be even longer and harder to understand than it already is. If the real world changes, there would be a million more pain points in the law that need to be changed than there already is. That’s what juries and judges are for. Because rules sometimes need to be broken, and they determine if the context justified the rule breaking.
There's a "no right on red" in my town, and it always tries to run it. Safe or not, I'm not going to get a ticket over it, and it isn't safe. The intersection is K shaped and "right" in question crosses several lanes of traffic.
It's not always due to limited visibility. Right on red increases pedestrian deaths everywhere, so some places have taken to full-city bans on doing it. But since everyone assumes they can do it, the city just spams the signs on every single intersection.
It sounds like you are agreeing with me?
I just want the option to change the mode without having to tap through the menus. It would be my left scroll wheel functionality but noooooo.
The guy behind me honking agrees.
That’s simply not true. There are TONS of intersections that where you could turn on red for decades upon decades that have just had no turn on red signs put up and you can see perfectly fine. Most often it’s because there’s a bike lane and they’re trying to appease crybaby bikers who don’t stop for reds like they’re supposed to.
A wide camera behind the driver's head won't be able to see more around a bush or whatever that's blocking the driver's view (the whole point of the no turn on red sign) of incoming cross traffic. The driver can at least lean forward to gain a better angle to see further down the road. Sorry, but that's a hard "FSD should obey the freaking sign" from me until Tesla and any other OEMs add cross-viewing cameras to the front corners...
Ugh, the NHTSA stop is one of the worst things ever, since it basically means stopping twice at every stop sign (once at the stop line before the crosswalk then 2mph creep to stop at the actual road cross road lane to check for traffic). It's one of the main reasons I just don't use FSD that much. I'm all for coming to a full stop, but the double (usually) full stop sucks.
Business insider people? Why is this being given any attention at all?
This is a dumb clickbait article. If you’re trying to train the car to make right turns having random samples in your dataset where the car just sits there would be idiotic. The vision stack doesn’t have the capability to read signs, even if you left those samples in during training the car won’t learn no turn on red. At some point Tesla will add a classifier for the no turn on red signs and or map data.
This is exactly it. I've given interviews to media and watched them rearrange my words to fit their narrative. Sometimes intentionally, often in error. Business insider do tend to love a negative Tesla piece.
The headline is ridiculously clickbaity, especially since Tesla has no reason to permanently limit the signs FSD can read. Hell, “No Right On Red” is seemingly accounted for somewhere, because at some intersections with that sign it’ll always wait before turning.
A couple of versions ago, I noticed that it didn't honor no turn on red. But in the more recent versions, it's obeyed them every time.
Now this is awesome.
> If we tried to make driving laws to cover every single exception, cover every single human behavior, it would be even longer and harder to understand than it already is. Boy, people really never miss any chance to make a strawman argument, do they?
As an avid pedestrian, it's why I really hate roundabouts. People speed into those only looking for traffic to the left, not pedestrians on their right.
What’s the strawman? You claim that if perfectly following the law is dangerous, then we should change the law. I’m saying that if we change the law so that perfectly following it is never dangerous, it would be even longer and harder to understand than it already is, along with a myriad of other consequences. Doesn’t mean the law can’t be changed, rather that reality is never going to align with the law 100% of the time, especially with cars.
Your entire argument was against making the laws more complicated, but I never said that the laws should be more complicated. That's the strawman. If you wanted to make that argument legitimately, you would have to prove that my argument absolutely requires the laws to become more complicated, but it doesn't, so that's really the end of it. You can't prove something that isn't true. You assumed it must be true, and then argued against that assumption.
There's a no right turn on red sign near my place. FSD has not once ran it (almost most human drivers I see do)
It sounds like as an adaptation to that, pedestrians should follow the same flow of traffic even if that's less convenient.
Have... you never driven in traffic / congested areas?? I have like 4 spots near where I live like this. We don't have "No turn on red" but the traffic is so backed up sometimes you will sit at a light through 2-3 cycles before it clears enough to actually drive through it.
FSD also ignores flashing school zone signs🤦♂️
Sad in California ilyou get honk and road rage from stopping on those signs. And cops did nothing Abt it.
Im like 50/50
Why would they design a roundabout with pedestrians in it?
Do you know what a crosswalk is
Pedestrians have the right of way in crosswalks
In an urban area like NYC and DC, most intersections are not fine to turn right on red due to pedestrian and bicycle traffic
The law only exists because it was passed to reduce oil usage during the embargo.
Yes I am familiar. I am asking as a citizen of the UK. We do roundabouts quite well. We don't put citizens onto roundabouts unless they're traffic controlled. I don't understand why this would happen.
Unfortunately american engineers heard about the roundabout and ruined them. They started building 2 or even 3 lane circles where drivers accelerate into crosswalks with no signs or lights https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9826834,-86.1419357,3a,47.1y,179.15h,89.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scm6VzGS8u9B3haI-nD3A8A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MDkxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
I see the problem. That's madness. If we did that, it would be controlled... https://maps.app.goo.gl/okrF3GNRzaz7KpZR8?g_st=ac
New standards taking place this year will require 2+ lane roundabouts to have a flashing light pedestrians can activate, but still not require full signal
More points
I am
here's one https://maps.app.goo.gl/SqnGFAv7ibVvebu76
Doesn't really matter if no one is looking for them coming from the right as mentioned you risk getting hit having the right of way or not.
Yes, I wasn't denying their existence, I was asking why. See my other replies for a comparison. :)
He said "because nobody will let you through". How does that happen in a right turn on a green light?
Uh the downtown area happens here all the time because cars stack up bumper to bumper into the intersection. It's also illegal to block intersections here but I've never once seen a cop do anything about it. Can't make a right turn on green when the cars are bumper to bumper waiting on the red light ahead of the one your stuck at. By the time the intersection clears, the light is red again. By the time it's green again, it's back to stacked cars.
Does it check for cops first, like humans do? Or do you just get to argue in court that you weren't driving at the time your car intentionally broke the law? I gurantee this ruling involves Elon having a no-right-on-red sign on the commute that doesn't apply to him.
Uh. How does "letting you through" figure into that? You're just describing heavy traffic.
??? Because people stuck in traffic don't let you through a lot of the time. The whole point is why people turn on "no turn on red" because while it's green nobody let's you through. That's one example why people do it.
Some intersections have cameras that specifically ding you for turning right on red. Whether it makes sense or not I dont want the car getting me tickets.
I experienced FSD trying to turn on red when a sign prohibited it, it was definitely a little unsettling.
You make no sense. The cars that are stuck in traffic in front of you can't let you through even if they want to. Saying "won't let you through" implies traffic that can let you through but won't.
Makes sense. My FSD 12.5.1.3 ignores red signs for sure. That's the only annoying thing about it.
This is possibly the most ironic and least self aware comment on reddit.
> This is possibly the most ironic and least self aware comment on reddit. Not many people would admit that about their own comment. Good on you, Cheers59! Blocked.
Upvoted for full commitment to the bit 🫡
And just dealt with left turn on No Left Turn sign. So annoying
It's on the right scroll wheel
they should rename it to guaranteed ticket mode
literally never seen one like that
Did they tell the trainers to left lane camp too?
Well, I have FSD and the only reason stopping me use it locally is how much is slow down at stop sign, full stop, and then slow start, maybe stop again, then a hard start. And I need to pass 10 of them before get home. I know this is the right and safe way, but no one drives like that.
Who the hell doesn't follow no turn on red signs. They'll ticket you in New York real fast. It's super annoying to constantly have to disengage because of this.
lol
We should follow this rule. But stuff like rolling stops? Everyone does it.
If Tesla is trying to drive safer than a human, why emulate our bad driving habits? It's all about stock hype so the big guy can line his pockets.
Easy, only walk counter clockwise! *Taps head
That's what I was taught. *Taps Head*
Right? It stops about 10 feet back from the actual sign every time confusing the driver behind me. Every. Time.
As someone who uses FSD everyday, I can say that it recognizes No Turn on Red signs, and obeys them. With that said, it is not perfect yet.
Yes this is real I had to intervene every time to avoid tickets.
They are quite common here on small 1-lane roundabouts where one of the exits connects to a smaller side-road and has a crosswalk on it. They work just fine in places with less traffic.
Truth that people don't want to hear. Not today, but very soon the reality will be that the car will be able to make better safe decisions on whether it can break human driving laws. A lot of driving laws exist to prevent humans from being reckless in the road and/or taking advantage of others. A self driving car won't have such a dilemma unless there's unintended bugs glitches etc.
Sounds like the CEO. Telling people to ignore the rules because it doesn’t apply to him apparently.
I was just at a stop light that had 2 turn lanes with a no turn on red from the left turn lane, it stopped for a good while, but eventually tried to go before I had to put my foot on the brake to stop it from going.
I once saw two vehicles tlone right after the other turn right on red where sign was posted no turn on red. Immediately, a motorcycle cop waived both of them over and ticketed them both. No turn on red means exactly that.
Don’t disengage, just press the go pedal and it will ignore the sign…. I do it everyday….
It's a pedestrian safety thing. Basically all of Europe also prohibits it. I don't like it either but it is way safer.
I hate roundabouts too but there are very few of them here possibly if I had more exposure to them... Pretty much the same reason I don't like driving downtown because I rarely go downtown.
Never trust what other people are supposed to do look after yourself. That one way of looking at things will make your driving drastically safer.
TBH I don't see who likes FSD. I don't want it to make decisions for me. I don't even listen to the map because it messes up around toll roads. I don't want to be on the toll road I want to be on the feeder. The map will zig-zag me all over the place to avoid. I like autopilot with lane change but not 100% of the time. Sometimes it gives me some kind of weird move as well. Even yesterday going to Carmax it tried to get me to go into an entrance with a gate.
I literally want the car to obey the sign though.
Wow. I just assumed that the no turn on red sign by my house that FSD would just turn and not stop at was an anomaly (bug) and would eventually get fixed on an update. Police camp there ticketing people often. It's at the bottom on an overpass and if you don't have a green, it's a bit dangerous to turn there. People have been an accidents there. Hence, why they put the no turn red sign there.
Neither my m3 nor my Mx ignore those signs?
Also the entire island of Montreal for our Canadian friends.
They also updated the car to never use turn signals. Turn signals are woke now lol
Did they also ignore one way road signs? School signs? Roundabout signs? Yield signs? Things like this make me wish there was some way to train it for our personal preferences.
I think the real reason is that the cameras are too poor to actually read the “No turn on red” signs. I doubt it can be trained to recognize any signs texts smaller than STOP signs and speed limits.
I cant tell if "avid pedestrian" is a joke or not
It wasn't.
It's also just massively dangerous in most places where they do exist, thats why they're there at all.
this is great. I bought a used Tesla last year and I still had the option to upgrade to FSD but I have not done it yet because of the price tag
Very slowly and hesitantly. Dangerously so
I drive through one of these daily. Even worse, it’s adjacent to a popular trail used by runners and bikers who cut through the roundabout quickly. I’ve had several close calls.
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