I found this gem of a fElon rebuttal on LinkedIn.
Guy that lied about having a physics degree says 'redundancy is dangerous'. What an engineering genius. 🤡🤡🤡
It'll always be funny when someone who knows what they're talking about chimes in on whatever stupid cosplay Ol' Musky is trying out.
there is no point giving rebuttal to Enron. all he needs is attention. everyone knows what Enron saying is wrong including himself, but he just says something random so that he is the person of discussion everywhere
It's more safe to be confidently wrong - Elon Musk
Confidently incorrect. They work better that way
Waymo is driving on the highways out here all the time now. They're just not doing it yet with passengers.
This is what happens when someone has too much money, too little sense, and doesn’t know how to handle being told he’s wrong.
This seriously makes me rage lol
Love when Elon tries to sound smart and then someone smarter than him makes him sound like a middle schooler
Kalman taught at UF when I was there. Never got a chance to take one of his courses, tho, scheduling didn't work out. He was a brilliant engineer. Musk continually proves he is not an engineer. As far as I can tell the only real degree he has is in economics, altho Penn seems to have given him a generic BA degree in exchange for a large donation. But the way he uses engineering terms, or technical terms in general, just shows that he knows the words but doesn't really understand the meaning (it's the same with programming - I always laugh when he tries to sound like a "leet" programmer, but gets it slightly wrong every time).
If you know where to listen, I’m pretty sure you can hear that every day.
When did we begin to value belligerent ignorance over actual knowledge in this country??
Who needs depth perception? That's why I drive with one eye closed.
Elmo always acting the fool
Elone is doing great with Starship too because he knows more than the Engineers....
huh? I just saw a waymo doing 65 on the freeway in Houston yesterday! I admit I didn't get a good look to see if a human was behind the wheel, but the way it handled the lane looked like a bot
Who needs ears when you have eyes!
Dunning-Kruger will be renamed to simply “Musk Syndrome” pretty soon.
The downfall started with Reagan, maybe Nixon. The Right has been cultivating proud ignorance for at least 40 years.
When I read his tweets I hear Steve Carell from Anchorman reading them. He just throws in some fancy words to try making him sound smarter than he is.
And he'll die on that sword
BA in Physics. Lol
"This is a fundamental misunderstanding" more like "This is a grifting moron".
It reeks of pure face-saving desperation at this point. He made a poor bet, but now has to prove it was "smart." With a free trial, the FSD couldn't handle a decent rain or even driving into the sunset. The idea that there will be some binary disagreement in sensors with different strength profiles doesn't mean one has to be chosen over the other, but the idea that more data that relevant is detrimental to an AI model doesn't seem plausible on its face. Can I just get decently functional windshield wipers in the meantime? Shitty wiper functionality has been "fixed" umpteen times, and still runs the wipers when the windshield is dry, but often makes me force them on manually them when it's not wet enough. Super frustrating that we don't have the basics, but sure--adding radar is more dangerous.
He certainly knows something about being very confidently wrong.
I see Waymos on the AZ51 all the time 😂
The fact that Elon is actively saying "It's bad to have too much information because it makes it harder to make decisions" tells you everything you need to know about why this man is unstable and dangerous
I used to work with a guy who had a BA in chemistry. Dumbest person I've ever known personally…
so where's the win
That's hilarious. I've read my high school physics book cover to cover. I don't list it on my resume. Maybe I should.
So if my radar sees a transmission sitting in the road 50 yards ahead but my cameras are partially obscured by rain and can’t pick it up, I’m better off not having the Lidar because they can’t handle a disagreement?
"Hm, Elon says whatever he wants, and is the world's richest person. If I say whatever I want, maybe one day I, too, can be rich." - Too many people, seemingly.
Who needs eyes when you have eye?
That's also why he fires so many people.
Isn't Waymo a 2 out of 3 system where they use three sensors and majority wins? Meanwhile Tesla just has camera so camera wins every time even when it thinks the side of that truck is a cloud.
"In the Land of Truth, the Man with One Fact is King".
People on this subreddit dont understand Elon. He knows he's wrong as well. But if he admits, tesla will tank 90%. The entire brand is on robotaxi and robots. He will be bankrupt with margin calls maybe. Saudi investors will go after him. Why would anyone in his position admit this? He could be open to many lawsuits. Hes just grifting until the ride ends.
I’m not even a physicists but naturally I would take more data would make things better. Compliment each other. Why put them against each other?
He's not just an engineer. He's also an elite gamer.
But on the other hand, they are providing him with a free consulting service. Let him say something dumb and learn later the hard way!
I carved my right eye out years ago to improve my safety.
It's not cameras vs radar/lidar. It's camera vs radar vs lidar. If 2 sensors validate something it overrides the other. That's why Teslas experience phantom breaking, it only has one sensor to depend on, so it can only make one conclusion. And contrary to popular belief, Waymo runs vision predominantly, and depends on radar and Lidar for confirmation. And Waymo has already begun operating on highways.
Elon musk is genuinely a moron.
Let's just think about it in a simple way. If I have two sensors and they agree 99% of the time, all is good. 1% of the time, they disagree. Let's say 50% of the time sensor 1 is correct and 50% of the time sensor 2 is correct when they disagree. It is inherently safer to stop everything and go into a safe mode when they disagree ad opposed to only having one sensor that the system will confidently plow on ahead in the 0.5% of times it is wrong. In reality, it isn't a binary yes/no, it is a confidence result from these sensors. If sensor A is giving 49% confidence something isn't there and sensor B is 99 % confidently, you may decide to assume something is there. Add a third sensor and you get a better redundancy system if 2 out of 3 agree. Using a single input just assumes 100% accuracy, which maybe is fine when systems are working under normal operations but system failures will now be disregarded.
Nope. Mostly a business student. Left school without a degree. Venture investors in PayPal used the means at their disposal (money) to convince U. Penn to give Musk degrees years after he dropped out. Of all our tech broligarchs, probably the dumbest.
My nephew once corrected musk on a conference call about a technical point and you know what happened?…..someone hung up and left the meeting
The educated are clearly commies after all.
Felon is so wrong.
Unfortunately, proud ignorance and belligerent bigotry has been a thing in the US all along. It just ebbs and flows. There were radio demagogues like Father Charles Caughlin back in the 30s. When the country’s population was only 120 million, he was drawing 30 million listeners a week. If you listen to any of those old recordings, you’ll hear a lot of the same shit (and the same rhetorical devices) as Rush Limbaugh throughout the 90s-00s, and right wing podcasters and pundits now. There was also a nascent fascist movement in the US at that time as well. The American Nazi Party was holding rallies in NYC. We kinda got “lucky” that the Pearl Harbor attack forced the US to enter WWII on the side of the Allies, which then required a massive all-out media push to sway public opinion away from the far right and towards freedom and democracy, to produce the morale necessary to (sell) win the war.
Because straw men are the only ones Musk can defeat in a battle of technical competence.
Sounds like OceanGate logic
Yah sure Elon. Ask your cameras about that when it’s raining.
Dude must be an idiot because Waymo’s are certainly driving on highways.
Fun fact, when you have two or more cameras they can disagree with each other. Teslas have what, 8 cameras now?
It’s a human trait
Teslas have multiple cameras. How do they settle if there's a conflict between cameras footage. They need to only have 1 camera with a tiny field of view to be safe. /s
this is a prime example of where elin tries to sound smart on the surface level, but if you dig just a little bit you can see how dumb it is. in this case you don't even need an engineering degree or anything, just common sense. point your normie friends to this tweet and say " does this sound like a genius to you? would you seriously want to ride in a robotaxi with LESS sensors in it????"
that would make an interesting horror novel/movie. protagonist wins the lottery, surrounds themselves with lackeys but then eventually no one will tell them anything they don't want to hear, to the point where they start rotting from gangrene or something.
relevant [https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/158huqo/but\_hes\_a\_genius/](https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/158huqo/but_hes_a_genius/)
That's offensive to middle schoolers. Most smart middle schoolers I know actually understand the limits of their knowledge and don't pontificate about highly technical topics as if they're experts.
And a .5% error is 1 in 200. How many decisions does a car have to make in a 30 min trip? 60 mins?
Elon Musk is the real life David Brent (or Michael Scott for the US Office fans).
This guys is 15 years into dying on this camera > lidar hill one random linked in post sn’t going change his mind
There was a science fiction-y story like that, as I remember it, a gangster dies, goes to the afterlife, everything works for him. Every gambling bet wins, every girls is seduced by him, etc. Eventually he gets bored and the St Peter type finally reveals he's in Hell, not Heaven.
Musk can't be *this* stupid, can he? What kind of engineer thinks a good solution to an issue where two different sensors disagree, is to simply remove one sensor and therefore remove the disagreement?
According to Elmo, yes - you're simply better off not knowing about the obstruction because he personally can't fathom algorithms that take multiple inputs into account.
He isn’t an engineer, is he? Doesn’t he have an economics degree and a physicis degree?
He’s got a real Stockton rush way of putting things
I've driven three vehicles with radar cruise control and automatic lane centering and none have done the crazy BS I've seen Tesla do
Yeah Elon is outing himself as having no knowledge of signal processing or information theory. Just like he putted himself twice as not being a pro gamer lol.
So now we know why you get fired if you work for Enron and have a disagreement with him. It’s because he can’t handle an argument
He’s neither an engineer. If he has claimed to be one, he should be prosecuted.
1787
And even if Elon had a point (he doesn't), the cameras tesla use are ass. A cell phone from a decade ago would still have significantly higher resolution. Not to mention the cameras can't clean themselves, can't defog themselves, are prone to glare, and aren't even positioned to get a full 360 view.
I’ve had my Tesla for 9 years, and I’m still waiting for automatic wipers that actually work. The lack of a physical wiper control on all new Teslas is a very strong reason for me NOT to buy a new one. That and non-transferable FSD and lifetime free supercharging 😉
hey whoa hold up. elon has a super triple napalm doctorate in materials science and pretty well everything else and he's the smartest guy to ever exist AND he'll tell you so.... obviously nobody can be more correct than him. who cares about anyone else's safety or success.
Why would birds evolve to sense Earth's magnetic field, if they can just look around with their eyes?
Like LLMs
Yes and he was barely even a student. Fraudulently acquired a student visa with the intention of starting a business here, which he did instead of going to class. When his investors realized they were funding an illegals immigrant, they pressured Penn.
It's about time the world catches up with the rest of us that have known for years Musk is the worlds best con man.
Lidar/radar with my cameras? Too much diversity; we must root it out.
Remember when he tried to delete the localhost to remove the woke mind virus? This guy is the best programmer/pro-gamer ever
Not sure why he needs more than 1 camera...what if they disagree???
There's always been a percentage of the population who just doesn't understand how the world works outside their profession and have no desire to change that. Musk heavily marketed himself as some kind of super genius through books, interviews and his fan boys. People tend to assume the system as a whole works and his success is actually built on some kind of merit and intelligence and Musk will regularly state that to be the case himself. There's also been this bizarre shift in skepticism that's kind of hard to explain or reason about really. People won't question Musk's bullshit but they'll tie themselves into knots trying to come up with some explanation of how Trump actually won the election in 2020 or how COVID isn't really dangerous and so on (There's some on the left too, I don't think there's anything really supporting the whole trans-athlete debate for example). It might just be a good example of bikeshedding really, everyone feels they have a qualified opinion on certain issues because there's no formal or technical educational requirement to understand them in their view while on others they'll just shut up because they realize they're out of their depth.
Yes. At the root this was a bad call. This means that the robotaxi stopped being a tech problem to becoming a regulatory problem long ago. Therefore, more government influence by Tesla.
I mean by all indications he literally has no understanding of it. He's definitely the "LALALA I can't hear you type" when it comes to information that disagrees with his viewpoint and from what we've seen with his time at Twitter actually pointing out when he doesn't know what he's talking about doesn't actually compel him to study a subject and become better informed but instead provokes him to lash out and just call the person saying it an idiot. He learns everything the hard way and great cost at the best of times and at this point all indications are he'd rather just take some chemical cocktail to ignore the inconvenient parts of reality when they do emerge.
What's really crazy about all this is that this kind of just basic knowledge about how robotics work. This is stuff that gets taught in the first few weeks of a robotics class and I'm sure similar for signals processing in EE where a lot of these techniques initially found applications. None of this stuff or its application in self driving vehicles is remotely new either. Kalman filters were used extensively in the initial DARPA grand challenge for example which was over 2 decades ago and even predating that they were literally used by the Apollo program to get astronauts to and back from the moon. It's a great example of how Musk has all these companies but really has no deep or detailed technical knowledge about how any of it actually works. Which is extra funny because Tesla's board of directors recently claimed that Musk's deep technical knowledge necessitates them paying him billions of dollars to retain his services too.
the Chainsaw of Sensors.... CHAINSAAAAW!!!!! Idiot!
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
[A Nice Place to Visit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Nice_Place_to_Visit), The Twilight Zone, first broadcast in April of 1960.
“He’s the richest man in the world, how could anything he say, on any subject, be wrong?”. We need to stop fèting billionaires as geniuses on everything rather than just people whose advantageous upbringing enabled them to amass exponential wealth.
Lol. It seems that at this point a common sense is compareable to the university degree.... You clearly do not need to have Phd in physics to understand this much....
The physics one was faked, maybe the other too
Ooo! Tell me more! He does have a PhD in grifting tho
Yes. With both sensors, you have a probability to crash. Without it, you're 100% sure you'll crash. Isn't it much better?
"If lidars/radars disagree with cameras, which one wins?" Scientists: which ever gives us the most safety Musk: <drives into road painted on wall>
At least three motorcyclists have been run over and killed by Tesla in Autopilot since they stopped using Radar. Also, here’s an interesting video on the topic by a motorcycle YouTuber RyanF9: https://youtu.be/yRdzIs4FJJg
It was first released publicly in the early 90s by Newt Gingrich. But Rush Limbaugh did all the prep work the previous decade. I guess technically it *started* with the elevation of Saint Ronaldus Maximus to the presidency. Regardless, it all gathered steam once we elected “a president I can drink a beer with.” And finally took hold with the election of That [Black Man]. Can’t believe I forgot Falwell’s Moral Majority, which again tracks back to Reagan. The blending of our politics with screwball, grifty evangelical groups was extremely important in this.
He’s a moron that says a lot of senseless things. Still, very rich. What a world.
This is from elons point of view of the Tesla software, he already has to deal with false positives right ? Like random braking. Thats the things that get through, he sees more sensors as more difficult and more false positives
I've said this for years and the Musk faithful always point out that I have never landed a rocket on a barge so I am therefore incorrect. Amir Husain isn't a billionaire, therefore he must be wrong... Right!?!?
Which one wins? It's not a contest, the one with the imminent danger should have a higher influence.
Wow. Idiotic.
“Cameras FTW- except in the dark…or in heavy rain…or in smoke…or fog. But if it’s a bright sunny day, you’re good!” - Elon Musk, probably.
Elon’s primary aim was to reduce complexity and cost - plain and simple. I think this was more of a business decision than a pure engineering decision. I think you’re spot on. The biggest argument he made in favor of vision only was that “most sensor input is error”. You’re right of course that probabilistic and AI-based sensor fusion techniques are very advanced and can fuse multiple signal inputs.
You mean the guy who *seriously* proclaimed that he knows more about engineering than *anyone* on Earth. Ever.
Waymo is DEI
Only Trump knows everything better than anyone.
Praise be, Lord and Savior Donald J. TRUMP. #THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION IN THIS MATTER
Didn't his limited rollout of "cyber taxi" on routes that had to be pre mapped and scanned in full detail by lidar and radar, require the safety drivers to take control of the vehicle on more than one occasion?
Meanwhile cyber taxi's need their safety driver to take over control on streets that had to be preplanned and scanned in full detail beforehand
Meanwhile his cameras disagree with themselves constantly ..
If you recall, the reason the boeing 737 maxes were grounded was largely in-part because their software didn't use redundant AOT sensors to filter out the faulty one. (the plane had multiple, but one system was poorly coded and picked one to use each flight)
Elon is 100% here. That's why, before I go anywhere, I wear an eye patch, earplugs, and nose plugs. I rubberband my hands and feet so they are numb. I burn my tongue with hot sauce. Relying on just vision to get around is the only way I can confidently get around.
If you were driving yourself, you couldn't see it either. It's not like he's making claims that his cars will drive better than people. He wants them to be exactly the same. /s
Musk knows he's full of BS, but he's doubling down because he's gone too far down the "camera only" narrative.
Fun fact, although I'm not sure it's still true now; the computers onboard airlines used not one, but several microprocessors at the same time all from different brands, and the results from all of them would be compared and the most common result would be used. It's also why cars use CAN bus. Hell, before he literally unplugged everything, it's why Twitter had two of every system (if not more). Enterprise systems, and everything even remotely important to operations such as safety, are built redundancy first. It's why Mainframes still exist in large quantities. It is PATENTLY obvious that he has never work on anything above a K'Nex set and a home PC.
Did Elon have a hand in MCAS development for the 737 Max? 🤣
This is how BYD wins.
Never made sense by saying a physics issue is actually a computational issue.
...But not too bright, because direct sunlight can confuse the cameras.
Also they disagree because sometimes the camera is wrong. I don’t get what Musk is saying at all.
😂🤣
well said!
Dangerous for profits maybe
It’s just a cost cutting line for him the rest is all BS
True, but in general both Musk and Trump use social media as a free, crowd sourced consulting service. Let them say and do dumb things -- not our job to talk them into doing something better/smarter. Don't fall for it! For example, after the Tesla semi was "released" (cough, cough), those in trucking were posting online reviews how to improve it. Fuck that! If Musk needs their help, let him pay for it.
I mean I guess. I just haven't seen anything to suggest he gives af about what anyone else says. Again, experts in his space have basically been calling him a dumbass for his entire career, never once seen him default to said experts even when they publicly call him out. His ego is way too big to admit hes ever wrong much less change his preformed opinions on anything
I think Musk is correct. It's also why you don't want too many pixels; what happens if you have a wide field of view and some pixels on the left say one thing and some on the right say another? The ideal cameras would be one pixel, and would have a shutter that automatically blocks the sensor in case the car's AI detects that it's getting disagreeable data. This way, the car's decision can be known to be correct with certainty, due to the lack of data that says otherwise. I think this would be very helpful for Tesla in all the wrongful death lawsuits.
Oh hey, look, Elon is a novice in an area he pretends he's a leading expert. What else is new?
Remember. Elon thinks a cup of coffee from Starbucks is worth $8!
Waymo *is* driving on highways with passengers in Phoenix, AZ. I've personally seen it.
Thank you, brother Vance
Perhaps one of you engineers can answer me this because I only have a BA in communications. I flew airplanes (DC-10s) for many years with "kalman filters." From what I can remember, it's a math algo that (in our case) took the gps position of the plane and the onboard internal nav system and mashed them together to give the aircraft its correct position. Over time ~30 mins it could predict the average error of the aircraft and fine tune it for the rest of the flight even if our GPS stopped working. My question is, can lidar and radar (different hardwares) work the same along with the filter, and can it be safer than cameras?
The neuropsychological term for the effect is summation. For example every human with normal senses can naturally lip read to some extent. That is why humans can communicate even in the most cacophonic night club environment. Visual and context cues fill in the blanks in the shitty auditive signal. Well studied subject in modern psychology.
As someone who is building a robot for elder care, yes... sensor fusion provably improves the overall accuracy of the system. I never even considered a vision only system.
Right, it's not that they can't it's more that they are actually making sure it's reliable before subjecting their customers to it...
If only there was some sort of technology out there that could interpret multiple sources of information and make a decision, kind of like an intelligent person but just artificial.
Murdered by words.
In California the highways are under different jurisdiction than the cities or counties, so they need different approval from different authorities to go on the highway. And probably have different regulations for whether or not there’s a safety person at the wheel, or completely full self driving, as well as with or without a passenger. It’s simply not a question of can they drive on the highway, rather are they allowed to?
There has never been a more stupid argument. If two sensors disagree on a space x rocket, what doesn’t he do. This is mind boggling stupid.
This Dunning Krueger filled moron is going to kill people with this approach. As the poster said, multiple sensor streams are being used successfully in many applications. This is one of elon´s stupidest takes, and there is a lot of competition.
Even in the 60's, the LM landed on the moon comparing BOTH the AGS & PNGS navigation systems. The convergence (or divergence) of those systems was invaluable to having confidence that the descent autopilot was guiding them to "the right spot"! What a dumbas$.
So much Vance. Much glad. Much good. That man he bold. He even wears a suit or so I have been told. Bow we must everyone. Learn we will.
Amen Hallelujah! Praise Jesus! Trump, the noblest president of them all. Nothing but praise!
That's it!
One of two possibilities. 1. He really is that stupid and ignorant. 2. He knows that those who listen to him are stupid and ignorant. Can't imagine any other reasoning. Maybe I am missing something.
Would've been way cheaper if they just used a bunch of cameras - fElon
That’s why he’s called Elon Dunce
So Musk is trying to save money on sensors
Hadn't heard that, that's hilarious. I have been told the real reason he was pushed out of Paypal was because he insisted on them using Windows servers instead of Linux.
Miles Bron trying to sound intelligent again....
Yet another certified bruh
r/confidentlyincorrect Elon strikes again.
Even a non engineer like myself can see how stupid that sounds. And aren't waymos starting to drive on highways now?
All his experience at zip2 came down to maintaining their website. This guy knows less about programming than someone who copied BASIC code from newspapers and magazines.
Because you can't control which sensor has priority? What. This guy is such an idiot.
Safety is *woke*, I guess. What a fucking moron.
“Well Teslas use one sensor” - Boeing management, probably
I belive the quote was that he knows the most about manufacturing, not engineering.
Confidently about being wrong ≠ confidently wrong 😂
It’s not so much that Elon doesn’t understand sensor fusion, he just doesn’t care and would rather bullshit his way through life. He served up similar horseshit about Tesla’s cameras not having glare because he claims glare is caused by image processing but Tesla uses raw image sensor data. Even on the earnings call the guy who asked the question about glare was like “ooookkkkaaaaaayyy…..”. Obviously not buying Elon’s gibberish but the stock price went up anyways.
Going to 0 🫡👌😂
As a chemist I can vouch for that. Knew a couple PhD physicists like that too.
“Piled higher and Deeper”
A fraudulent system rewards frauds.
Who would have thought a thin-skinned billionaire would think of turning off data sources who provided data he disagrees with?
Which they only did because yhe Zip2 investors found out he was in the country, living and working illegally on a student visa, and couldn't get an H-1B visa without a degree. Now, having overstayed, he wasn't actually eligible for a visa without very-difficult-to-get wavier of his overstay, but since he hadn't been caught, he must've just lied. The VC investors didn't have the option of ignoring the situation because they'd be legally required to disclose any such adverse facts at a potential IPO. So it wasn't out of the goodness of their hearts they pulled string to get Elon a visa, but to protect their investment.
Wdym he lied? He didn't graduate with stem degree?
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