TLDR: Customer took Tesla to arbitration and Tesla embarrassed themselves by sending two lawyers and someone thoroughly unqualified to answer questions to the hearing. They lost. Too bad, so sad.
So wouldn't there be a class action now to have everyone reimbursed?
The plaintiff had a very specific situation, you can’t extrapolate that result further.
The specific situation of not getting what he was promised when he bought it? Sounds like a good opportunity for thousands of lawyers to go into arbitration on a case by case situation against tesla.
Full Self Lawyering doesn’t seem to be working either.
Very specific you say without providing any specifics. I love the internet.
If you read the article the very specific claims, claims that would not necessarily be consistent with a large class of people, were very carefully called out.
Because they ignored Musk. He told them to just send Optimus.
Fuck Tesla ! & Nazis ass elon!
Hardcore street fighters were all busy fighting Ron Burgundy and the Channel 4 News Team.
The one with real people inside or the one shut down that could never work?
You can only participate in a class action if you opted out of arbitration.
Don’t be silly, the details are in the article you posted. This specific case worked this specific time because the plaintiff was an experienced lawyer and Tesla didn’t provide a good defense for why it didn’t work after a year of legal fighting. A full class action lawsuit would cause Tesla to shell out for a mountain of lawyers that wouldn’t allow a failure like that to happen again.
You can’t be a real person. Doubling down on saying nothing and throwing in an accusation based on nothing. Mashed potatoes between the ears.
Stating your imagination as fact doesn’t make it so. Take care.
Sigh, this is obviously a conspiracy meant to hold Elon back from making life interplanetary.
Unfortunately for Musk, Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer wasn't available.
the last few lines of the article sum it up well and provide a great point. Basically Tesla fucked up, and the masses gave millions of dollars while receiving an unrealized product. So, >Tesla *should* have a standing offer to reimburse FSD for anyone who requests it until it can actually deliver on its promise of unsupervised self-driving. >That’s the right thing to do, and the fact that Tesla would waste money trying to fight customers requesting a refund is really telling. >Tesla is simply not ready to do the right thing here, and it doesn’t bode well for the computer retrofits and all the other liabilities around Tesla FSD. It's pretty clear the writing is on the wall - Tesla doesn't want to be a car company. Model S X are on the same platform from 12+ years ago. Model 3 is now 7 years old with only a facelift. If we don't see new platforms for S X / Model 3 / Y in a couple of years (2028/2029) to capitalize on the 2030 ICE "end times", the automotive portion of this company is done-for.
“Tesla is simply not ready to do the right thing here, and it doesn’t bode well for the computer retrofits and all the other liabilities around Tesla FSD.” Tesla not a nice company? Tesla probably won’t do the right thing? Tesla selling snake oil for a decade? This belongs in r/noshitsherlock
Clearly. 😆
I’m providing an argument based on facts that you posted. I don’t know why you feel so adamant about rejecting it when you admitted you didn’t know the facts at all.
If we estimate half a million people paid for self driving at an average price of $8,000, then it means Tesla is on the hook for $4Bn as well as all the bad press. Feel free to argue my number estimates but it is in the $billions. You can buy a lot of lawyers with $4Bn.
Apparently him being a lawyer helped >That didn’t deter Dobin, who happens to be a lawyer with years of experience in arbitration. It took almost a year, but Tesla and Dobin eventually found themselves in arbitration, and it didn’t go well for the automaker:
Tesla purchase contracts require arbitration. Class actions are not applicable to arbitration. Each owner can request arbitration. Arbitration is free for the owner, at least in some states such as California (Tesla is oblied to pay the cost). Arbitration doesn't require the owner to hire a lawyer--they can self-represent--and the arbitration process doesn't require self-representing owners to learn a lot of legal process to navigate the process. Ideally, an owner would contact someone such as the lawyer in this article that successfully sued, get the case file, and submit it along with a personalized coverletter explaining one's personal situation to the arbiter and that might be it. Why aren't hundreds of thousands of owners requesting arbitration? There's no downside--if you lose, you've just lost a bit of your time.
Budget rent-a-lawyer interns
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I'm sure Musk has promised the board better results after Grok 5 is released.
You mean he had a good sob story about paying for FSD so that his disabled wife can keep her mobility independence ? Well, that shouldn’t really matter.
He might get some new requests for his services after this case!
Tesla can’t possibly defend or justify why it doesn’t work. It doesn’t work because the technology is not ready yet, and is still far from being ready (from full unsupervised self driving). In its current state, the FSD feature is still just a driver assistance system, and not an autonomous driving system, since it requires supervision.
Hey, one of those fuckers had a grenade!
Facts specific to this case are not "he was a lawyer and Tesla sucks". Anyone can get a lawyer, and Tesla always sucks. Facts specific to this case would be something like "Tesla made an individual assurance to him". They didn't. His case hinged on Tesla not having mentioned the safety score (not unique to his case) and Tesla not providing self driving (not unique to his case).
Ya OK. That is why Tesla failed. So all it takes is an experienced lawyer now? And for some reason Tesla will suddenly provide a better defense? Apparently this is a special case and all companies have to do to defend themself is try harder.
It seems like this has a lot of standard steps - no safety score in the contract and other things mentioned. Why doesn't this guy setup a service for Tesla owners to take them to arbitration en mass? Since it's just cookie cutter, it likely wouldn't cost that much.
The point of a class action is that you have a large number of people all in the same situation. Typically the class action comes out of the preponderance of cases, it is less likely that it starts from a lawyer. Anyone trying to take this outcome to court as a precedent would have an uphill battle because of the difference in the circumstances. The bottom line is that, yes, Tesla has been selling hype for more than a decade, and yes, there should be a class action suit. And, most importantly, they should lose it. My only point is that I would not use this arbitration outcome as the basis. If the plaintiff did not have the disabled wife, the case might not have had the same outcome. Based on how poorly Tesla defended itself here it is pretty clear that they are in a bad spot, and it’s my estimation (not a lawyer) that it would be hard to defend their position. But this was a single case with extenuating circumstances, a real class action suit would be much harder to win. But I hope someone tries.
They should have to pay interest on that money too.
Suggesting did not provide a good enough defense is now fact? Wow everyone in jail should know this one trick.
Twas no match for the trident.
Honestly if I bought FSD I'd hire him
Then wouldn’t there be a shitload of arbitration now?
>You can buy a lot of lawyers with $4Bn. Or pay 10% of Musk's bonus
Sure. How would you know?
But but sexrobots and space. It’s not a car company
You just said to contact an attorney, and then you wouldn’t lose anything but time. But the attorney is going to want $$$$
What should I do if I want to ask for my money back too? Start by calling tesla support?
This is From the guy himself found in the comments: “I’m the guy. I’ll try to answer questions that have come up in the comments. Disclaimer: this is not legal advice. This conversation did not create an attorney-client relationship. Precedent - arbitration awards are generally not considered precedent as to other claims. Class action - the arbitration clause means no class action. There was a class action in California and it was dismissed because of the existence of the arbitration clause in the purchase agreement. Test drive - I test drove the car, but FSD was not available in the car at the time. An important point to remember is that the arbitration award was based on the imposition of the safety score, which was not part of the contract. The arbitrator specifically stated that documents outside the contract, which would’ve included the 24 page description of the safety score, were not part of the contract and could not be considered. It may be likely that this case could serve as a roadmap for people who had a similar situation, that they paid for full self driving, we’re subjected to the safety score, then got rid of the car before they were cleared by the safety score, or later, when Tesla remove the safety score requirements. One of the obvious issues here is cost. I devoted a lot of time to this. But it was my time, and I didn’t have to pay anyone for it. I work from home, so those costs are fixed costs. I am not so busy that I took away time from other things that I was working on.”
Arbitration can be invalidated by fraudulent inducement. See deposition in a trial for the Apple Engineer who died while playing games in his Model X. Tesla settled the case before trial: [https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-video-promoting-self-driving-was-staged-engineer-testifies-2023-01-17/](https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-video-promoting-self-driving-was-staged-engineer-testifies-2023-01-17/) If you purchased FSD in part due to the fake video(s), you could claim Tesla defrauded you into purchasing FSD and try to get out of arbitration.
Yet their stock price is still up. Nothing makes sense.
The former Tesla owner who won the arbitration happens to be an attorney but could have been a non-attorney. Sharing a case file is different from agreeing to represent you as an attorney and this person may agree to share the file without compensation. For example, here I am providing you this advice free of charge. See my other post here for details on how to access (a more useful public record) case file: https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/s/wQLHvh6j6e
This guy won on a technicality (safety score blocked access to FSD), but the core case against Tesla for anyone with HW3 or older is more fundamental. When one bought FSD, one wasn't just buying the software as it existed that day. One was paying a premium for early access on a development path toward unsupervised autonomy. That path was the entire basis of the sale. The game-changer is Musk's own public admission that HW3 can't support the final goal. That's a confirmation that the path one paid to be on was a dead end from the start. The contract was predicated on the promise that our hardware was sufficient for the journey. When the CEO himself states that it's not, that's a breach. The consideration for that part of the contract has failed. This was the central legal argument in a class-action lawsuit. The press release is here: https://www.cpmlegal.com/news-Lawsuit-Filed-Against-Tesla-for-Allegedly-Misleading-the-Public-Regarding-its-Autopilot-and-Full-Self-Driving-Technology. The lawsuit was filed in the Northern District of California by Plaintiff Briggs Matsko (Case No. 3:22-cv-05240). The key thing to understand is why this class action was dismissed: it's not because the argument is weak. It’s because of the mandatory arbitration clause in Tesla's purchase agreements. The judge said the claim is valid but has to be fought individually in arbitration, not as a group in court. This is where it gets useful for someone with HW3 or earlier. The entire case file is a matter of public record, and you can submit it in your own arbitration. You can get these documents from PACER (Public Access to Court Electronic Records). It's the official online docket for all U.S. federal courts. You have to register for an account, but it's the definitive source. To find this case: * Log into your PACER account * Go to the "Query" or "Search" function. * Select the court: Northern District of California (CAND). * Search by Case Number: 3:22-cv-05240. * Look for key documents like the "Complaint" and any "Amended Complaint." These lay out the entire legal argument, timeline of Tesla's promises, and supporting evidence. Ideally, a helpful Redditor with a PACER account could download the key filings (Complaint, Amended Complaint, etc.) and post a link to a shared folder for everyone's benefit. An owner could then use these documents in their own arbitration. I am a helpful redditor with a PACER account so could do this research, but it's really not that hard and I don't have a Tesla so I'm hopeful someone else could step up. You could attach them with a simple cover letter explaining their relevance to the arbitrator—something like: "Attached for your reference are filings from the class-action lawsuit Matsko v. Tesla, Inc. While this class action was compelled into individual arbitration on procedural grounds, the substance of the complaint details the same fundamental breach of contract and false advertising claims at issue in my individual case. These documents serve as a well-researched summary of Tesla's long-standing promises regarding its hardware capabilities versus the subsequent reality, which directly supports my claim for a refund."
One more critical point for anyone considering this: the goal isn't necessarily to win a formal arbitration hearing. The goal is to get your money back. The evidence suggests that a credible threat of arbitration can be enough. Tesla seems to settle these claims quietly rather than go through the entire expensive process. In the original Electrek article: Find the comment section. A user named "Blake" posted: "In my country, I was reimbursed for my FSD payment after a ‘final’ email threatening to go to arbitration." This is a direct, first-hand account. Another place to look are Tesla Motors Club (TMC) forum, which is the largest repository of owner experiences. Use their search function for terms like "FSD refund arbitration", "FSD settlement", or "demand letter refund". You will find multiple threads from owners discussing how to approach this. After 2min, I don't see first-person accounts but there's a lot of stuff to navigate. The key point I see in the posts I browsed is that most people are scared of filing an arbitration claim because it sounds complicated, even though it's not (from my own personal experience in another subject area). A well-written demand letter that references the public filings from the Matsko v. Tesla class action may accomplish a ~$10k refund at no cost to you and be a better business decision for Tesla than paying lawyers tens of thousands to fight a case they are likely to lose. My opinion is that the demand letter should request arbitration, showing one is serious and skipping unnecessary back and forth if Tesla is unwilling to immediately settle.
The attorney might do it on a contingency basis. While I understand FSD is only $8000, the atty now has a winning playbook. Since it doesn’t seem like each case will require much in the way of factual discovery, there might be a sufficient volume of cases to make it a worthwhile endeavor if the contingency is high enough, e.g. 50%.
And the stock price just went up again.
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