Tesla introduces extended HV Battery and DU warranty

$2k to get another 30k miles or 24 months warranty on the battery doesn't seem worth it. Edit: given the responses, I will admit my view is biased by not being eligible and being at 190k miles/7.5 years on the original battery/drivetrain. Current battery capacity is 80% and was above 85% at 130k miles

There’s nothing quite like selling a solution to a problem you created

It does when a replacement is upwards of $12K

what exactly is the problem here?

So far Tesla got me for $100/year premium connectivity, $16/month windshield insurance. I also paid $100 for FSD on my 2,000 mile road trip over the summer. Now there is battery extended warranty and also tire hazard protection that sounds like it would be nice to have too. Not to mention acceleration boost. All would be nice to have but I will not be getting. And since it’s been snowing here pretty much entire December, the winter tire package could have been useful too. So many ways to spend my money on convenience and “protection”

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For 100k miles I am sold

So essentially $2500 for 2yrs of insurance on a $12k repair.

Am I understanding it correctly that this doesn't cover battery replacement due to capacity loss.....? This is listed under not covered: ”Failures or degradation specific to Battery capacity or energy retention;"

This is a typical risk management equation. If a new battery costs $12,000, then you have to decide (a) if you think there's a greater than 1-in-6 chance of your battery failing in that 2 year period, and (b) whether the potential pain of a surprise $12,000 bill is too much to bear. Tesla has the data so they know that on that whole, the odds are much lower than 1-in-6. Only you can answer the second question. Edit: Also, I'll bet they don't promise a brand new replacement (may be refurbished), so adjust the math accordingly.

Same as any other kind of insurance. It simply does not make sense unless you are unlucky one. It is up to everyone who wants take their chances. I cancelled all my insurances unless mandatory.

$2000 is the rough market price for a 3 year bumper to bumper warranty. I’ll take my chances

Great to see Tesla offer this and I mentioned this on another Tesla Reddit, I would consider checking out xcelerateauto. I purchased a 150,000 warranty and my car is covered up to 240,000 miles and this was only 3700.

You might check with your insurance company to get windshield coverage for a fraction of that

Correct, insurance is always a loss from an expected value perspective, because insurance companies make money and the whole thing is a zero-sum game, so you have to lose money in order for them to make money. Insurance only makes sense if you are risk-averse, or more typically if you are looking at such a large amount of money that it makes sense to be risk-averse. Home insurance, life insurance, and liability insurance are examples of the latter. I don't think a $12k battery replacement qualifies for most people. If you can't afford $12k you shouldn't be buying a Tesla.

136k folk are like.....tell me more

Set for....its passed the mileage and therefore doesn't count

Extended warranties are never worth it. If they were worth it, the company wouldn't offer them in the first place. When you buy gasoline, the following sources of value differential come into play: * Rent seeking: Exxon-Mobil owns oil fields, or at least the rights to one. You probably don't. * Expertise: Oil companies know how to operate oil and gas extraction and refining equipment. You probably don't. * Economies of scale: It's cheaper per unit production to operate a large oil and gas extraction project than to have each individual household bankroll their own oil production and refining apparatus. None of these applies to an extended warranty. An extended warranty is purely a casino bet, and if the house didn't always win, the house wouldn't remain in the business.

Yes. It’s a factor you need to weight the risk on depending on your vehicle. If you are close to needing one then it makes sense.

$500 deductible too lol

\#theydidthemath These two are pretty much bs. So they can deny coverage (technically) if once I charge more than 90%? \- Loss of Battery energy or power over time or due to or resulting from Battery use. See Your owner documentation for important information on how to maximize the life and capacity of the Battery. If You fail to follow these recommended battery maintenance n charging procedures, any resulting issues will not be covered; \- Any noticeable changes to the performance of the Battery and Drive Unit due to vehicle software updates;

Give me an extra 50k and I’ll do it

It also doesn't cost Tesla 12k. That is a consumer price.

I have glass coverage. However, my deductible is higher than the yearly Tesla premium. Also, the insurance company may require non-oem glass and their coverage of cameras calibration that only Tesla can do is questionable.

That seems expensive for just 2 extra years. It does say something about all those opinions like "batteries will outlast the vehicle" and so on. The expected failure must be magnitude of order higher that oftern times quoted 0.1%. If it was this low their profit margin on this product would be insane - 1 failure out of 1000 insured would cost them 12k while they would pocket 2 milions.

Of course that’s how insurance works. They need to predict the probability of failures in a large fleet and charge a premium to cover all those failures with some margin on top to make money. Otherwise your insurance company would go belly up before they can pay out the claims and that’s even worse. The only question you need to ask yourself when buying insurance is whether you will be ok financially if your car happened to be the unlucky one amongst the entire fleet.

30k miles? lol

From a risk/reward standpoint it would be better to place the $2,000 on a 5-to-1 bet in a casino. The casino house odds are less than Tesla's.

Which makes it very problematic if you are considering this warranty for a used car with uknown charging history. They should provide a way to certify that the battery warranty can be applied before you purchase it.

What is the maximum amount the warranty will cover? I've seen a different product that covered only 10k rest was on you.

Agreed how about extend it to 200k miles.

So this was just me , I was 10K past the warranty, Tesla quoted me $18,000 for a battery replacement on my 2021 model 3 that died on me….this would’ve saved my bacon (that’s including labor)

Appreciate the feedback. I don’t know if I’ll have my car at 120k miles but a battery failure at 130k does really suck

In my math, Tesla now makes ‘1 million mile batteries’, or roughly 100% chance it fails in 1 million miles. Or 3% chance it fails in the next 30k miles. Very expensive insurance, unless I am off by a factor of 10.

>. If you can't afford $12k you shouldn't be buying a Tesla. I don't think that this doesn't really apply to the people that are spending $50k+ on a Tesla. They are covered by the warranty for up to 8 years/120k miles. This is more applicable to those that are spending $20k to $30k on a used Tesla. They are generally less able to absorb an unexpected $12k battery replacement on their 5 year old car 6 months after buying it.

I'm confused. If the battery/powertrain warranty is 8 years (and it is), how does anyone end up out of warranty coverage on their 5 year old car? If you're talking about an 8+ year old car, then I think at that point it's cheaper to replace the car with another 8+ year old car rather than bother with battery replacement.

Third party extended warranties are generally a sham, with extensive restrictions and more excuses to get out of paying than United Healthcare. But manufacturer extended warranties are generally better (as long as you can negotiate them down significantly from the list price). As with any insurance policy, it's to eliminate the risk of an expense you couldn't bear by the guaranteed paying of an amount that you can.

I think this is the closest thing to a fleet battery failure report than anything else we've seen. If Tesla is charging 1/6 the cost of a battery replacement for this warranty, then my guess is that there is a 1/10 failure rate over 2 years/30k miles for batteries out of warranty. That gives them a sufficient profit margin. If the failure rate was much lower, the cost would be lower.

Huge caveat: you can only get this before 100k miles.

Maximum liability is up to 30K.

Only 2 years too

No. I think they’re saying those things aren’t covered regardless of if you followed the procedures or not… so, to minimize battery degradation, follow the procedures

My 2021 LR model 3 battery just failed at 64k miles. Hope it doesn’t happen again.

They are saying that *on average* someone who buys new for $50K+ can more easily afford a $12K replacement *at some future point* than some who has bought/can only afford a used Tesla for $20K.

I am saying that their scenario is irrelevant. Pretty much anyone who buys a used Tesla for 20K will still have warranty coverage. The claimed hypothetical scenario of someone buying a car and needing a battery replacement out of warranty six months later literally never happens.

No, there are a lot of high mileage Teslas for sale that are, or are very close to being, out of warranty due to mileage. It’s not just age.

I would have to read the terms and see if they changed the normal ESA terms but when I was an advisor at Tesla these extended service agreements were only available for the original owner on NEW vehicles you couldn't get one for a used Tesla. I will say the value isn't terrible here though. An extra 25% warranty coverage worth of time and roughly that for miles depending on your config isn't too bad.

They don’t make 1 million mile batteries?

Mine failed at 55k miles 2 years ago

2021 too?

Yeah. I think the Covid lines were bad for battery manufacturing

At least this is what they advertised

No they haven’t

This seems like a terrible extension. “Pay us $2K to let you know that your HV battery is still above 70% battery health and will not be replaced a little longer.”

Maybe if my battery was right above the cutoff for replacement and my original warranty was about to expire it could be worth it.

How would you know if you’re close to needing one?

We have a six-year-old car with 145,000 miles on it. This seems like it might be worth it for us.

Haha Never mind… I guess this is for if your warranty has an expired already. Yeah this is just for nervous people.

That logic doesn’t follow. Them offering a warranty means they MUST have a high failure rate? Service agreements are huge profit makers for carmakers. That’s the point.

Isnt it the opposite?? Wouldn’t this mean Tesla has confidence that your battery wont die within this extended period? Thus they pocket the $2k. Thats Tesla’s bet. Thats why companies offer extended warranty, right? With cost of labor, cost of the battery pack , opportunity cost in the service center, etc i would bet they do not make much profit on $2500. So why would they offer this if there is a high failure rate? (They have failure rate data).

So basically you paying 2500 for 30,000 miles, cause the miles gone come first for most people.

It does follow. The target margin of extended service agreements is usually between 50-70%. It is not hundreds of percents. If you ask ChatGPT it will actually give you a reasonable analysis of what is going on. It estimates the claim probability to be \~4–10% over the 2-year extension period. It is fair to point out that population of vehicles that will be covered is not the same as a random sample of the over all vehicles population. Some factors contributed positively (to be covered the vehicles need to be under maximum mileage for your original warranty to be still in effect) and some contribute negatively - people will likely get the warranty if they are in harsher climate or they are higher mileage vehicles (but still under the max).

I bought mine at about 70k miles and it cost about 50% more than yours. But... I'm over 100k miles now, with about 80k miles left of warranty. It is a no-brainer since it's only a matter of time before the RDU goes out again. Lol

That is pretty good. Thanks!

125k miles an no issues so far

So if you used your battery to the maximum power capacity at any time you can’t get a warranty replacement? So this extension of a warranty would be a waste? Asking because we are close to the limits now on charge capacity and have used 100% charge before a trip

And if their batteries last longer than you are thinking, they are getting even better margins.

the 70% part doesn't matter. It's if the battery needs to be replaced.

It's like $100/mo insurance on your battery.

I’ve owned teslas long enough to tell you that every one that could have benefitted from this would have benefitted from it. This is actually low key a no brainer purchase. It will be an instant buy for me when my next one hits its date

They may be gambling that future cars won’t really need it, but based on my personal experience with cars in this state *right now* you’d kind of be dumb not to at least consider it. I’d actually go so far as to say for CT, MS and MX you would be a fool not to purchase it.

This should be included in the car price already.

Yeah, that is about the only case I see. If you're at 100k miles and still 80+% capacity, doubtful you lose the next 10% in the next 30k miles

This is what confuses me, tesla are out in market saying their batteries are good for, 500k+ miles. So $2k to cover the battery for 2 years/ 30k miles,  which according to what they saying, should virtually never happen in that amount of miles, seems way way over priced.  They should be able to offer another 100k and maybe 4 years for similar price if we are to believe them.

I mean you are not wrong

When I bought my 2020 M3, my battery was said to have a lifetime of 1,500 cycles. That's roughly 450,000 miles. Of course that doesn't take into account a battery failure. Does anybody know the mean time between failures?

Dunno. Seems like a lot of ways for them to get out of the claim .

Mileage

Exactly, and plus, the $12k is a price set by the company selling this insurance. Third party battery repair and replacement services are few and far between, which means that in many locations, unless you want to ship the car somewhere, Tesla gets to 1) sell you insurance for battery replacement, and 2) set a high price for battery replacement to incentivize you to buy insurance. It would be like if health insurance companies also got input on how expensive medical procedures are, to make sure you are incentivized to buy their insurance.

Addressed in the other thread.

Agreed. It’s also expensive enough it makes me think Tesla thinks they’re going to have to replace quite a few batteries and drive units.

2 years isn’t very long at all. Still, it’s $2.75 a day for piece of mind. 🤷

I have bad news for you about health insurance

I guess I didn’t make it clear enough, but that last paragraph was tongue-in-cheek

Plus a $500 deductible if you do need the repair

I’ve had two batteries in 80k on my 21mylr almost never supercharge and only to 80% fist failure 60k second 80k first was a reman battery second was new

I checked too, and I think you're right

Really pricey for what you get. 3rd party warranties seem much better.

Hence why I said $2500….

Has anyone here needed a battery replacement out of warranty?

My bad, didn't put it together. You are right

30k miles / 24 mos is weak sauce. I'm covered to 120k miles... I would consider $2k for another 120k miles coverage maybe? That would essentially cover the life of the car as far as I'm concerned. My goal is to get to whenever AI5 comes out and a free FSD transfer.

if mine breaks i’m just gonna get a new car

Am I reading this right, or is this actually ***2500***, should the warranty need to be used?

I think a long range Model 3/Y battery costs about $12k to replace, so to break even from Tesla’s point of view, they want to make that much money by the time it needs replacing. If the standard warranty is 8 years / 120k miles, then you add six 2 year / 30k mile extended warranties to get Tesla their $12k, that gets the battery to 20 years / 300k miles. I’m guessing Tesla is expecting the average battery to last that long?

Shitty deal tbh, unless these packs are failing a lot more lately

Savings on electric vs gas seem impossibly insignificant when your paying $18,000 for a new battery.

That parts not all that bad.

This is listed under not covered: ”Failures or degradation specific to Battery capacity or energy retention;" So I can't think of a real reason to get a drivetrain warranty that literally doesn't cover the biggest risk in the drivetrain.

Same.

Yea man, honestly I drive A LOT, most people don’t blow the warranty is 4 years…..but this guy did. I’m a fan of Tesla but I believe their warranty is trash. Maybe the drive train warranty is “ok”. But the warranty for everything else is garbage, 2 years in my autopilot computer took a shit….guess what I was over 50k miles. The computer even if you don’t have FSD shadows you’re driving to learn. How is a computer warranty judged by mileage idk

Only costs that much because Tesla has DRM on their parts that prevents you from just replacing defective battery cells & other such cheap parts that plenty of third party suppliers make already.

Taking a cue from the discussion here, I ran it through Claude showing the math: 2018 Model 3 with 120k mile and “healthy battery” according to Tesla app. I’ll analyze Tesla’s extended warranty offering and help you determine if it makes sense for your 2018 Model 3.​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​ Now let me analyze this information and provide you with a comprehensive answer. ### Analysis of Tesla’s Extended Warranty Based on the information I’ve gathered, here’s my analysis: ### **Tesla’s Implied Expectations of Battery & Drive Train Life** From the warranty structure, we can infer Tesla’s expectations: 1. **Original Warranty for 2018 Model 3:** - Your 2018 Model 3 likely came with either: - Standard Range: 8 years/100,000 miles - Long Range/Performance: 8 years/120,000 miles 1. **Extended Service Agreement (ESA):** - Adds 24 months/30,000 miles beyond original warranty - Costs $2,000 (US) - $500 deductible per service visit **Tesla’s Implied Reliability Expectation:** Using insurance industry pricing principles, we can reverse-engineer Tesla’s expected failure rate: ### **Insurance Industry Standards:** - Target loss ratios typically range from **40-70%** for property insurance - Combined with expense ratios of **25-40%** - This leaves **5-10%** underwriting profit margin - For this type of mechanical warranty, let’s assume Tesla targets a **60-70% loss ratio** ### **The Math:** **Given:** - Extended warranty price: $2,000 - Coverage period: 24 months/30,000 miles - Deductible: $500 per claim - Battery replacement cost: $10,000-$16,500 (averaging ~$13,000) - Drive unit issues: $3,000-$7,000 **Tesla’s Expected Payout Calculation:** If Tesla prices at a 65% loss ratio: - Expected claims per warranty sold: $2,000 × 0.65 = **$1,300** Since a typical claim costs $13,000 (battery) or $5,000 (drive unit average), this means: - **Probability of battery failure: 1,300/13,000 = ~10%** - **Or probability of drive unit issue: 1,300/5,000 = ~26%** More realistically, combining both risks: - Tesla expects roughly **8-12% of vehicles** will need a major battery or drive unit repair in the 24-month/30,000-mile extended period ### **What Price Makes Sense for YOUR Situation?** **Your specific situation:** - 2018 Model 3 with 113k miles - Healthy battery currently - Likely near or past original warranty expiration **Break-even analysis:** At $2,000 cost with $500 deductible, you pay $2,500 total if you claim once. **Scenarios:** 1. **Battery fails:** - Cost without warranty: $13,000-$16,000 - Cost with warranty: $2,500 - **Savings: $10,500-$13,500** 1. **No failure:** - Loss: $2,000 **Expected value calculation:** Using Tesla’s implied 10% failure rate: - (0.10 × $13,000) - (0.90 × $2,000) = $1,300 - $1,800 = **-$500 expected loss** However, this assumes you’re an “average” car. Your situation is different: **Factors that make it MORE valuable for you:** - ✓ High mileage (113k) increases wear risk - ✓ Approaching/past original warranty expiration - ✓ Extended period of use means more exposure time **Factors that make it LESS valuable:** - ✗ Battery currently shows as “healthy” - ✗ Modern Tesla batteries typically last 300k-500k miles - ✗ Drive train issues are less common than battery issues - ✗ You can only claim within 30k miles/24 months from purchase ### **My Recommendation:** **The warranty makes financial sense if:** You’d purchase at **$1,500 or less** given your current healthy battery status. At $2,000, you’re paying a slight premium over the actuarial fair value. However, if you: - Plan to keep the car past 150k miles - Cannot easily absorb a $13k+ unexpected expense - Value peace of mind highly - Drive in harsh conditions (extreme heat/cold, aggressive driving) Then **$2,000 is reasonable** as insurance against catastrophic failure. **The math says:** Fair price given risk = **$1,200-$1,600** **The value proposition:** At $2,000, you’re paying for peace of mind + avoiding financial catastrophe risk ### **Sources:** 1. Tesla Battery ESA details: [Tesla.com](http://Tesla.com) support page 1. Battery replacement costs: Multiple sources ranging $10k-$16k for Model 3 1. Insurance loss ratios: Industry standards 60-70% for property/casualty insurance 1. Original warranty: 8yr/100-120k miles for Model 3 variants Given your healthy battery at 113k miles, I’d try to negotiate or wait for a promotion if possible, but $2,000 isn’t unreasonable if you value the protection.​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

Yes, but it also says that you can only buy it once, it seems you can't just keep extending it. (similar to their regular extended warranty terms).

Ohh, didn’t catch that. In that case, maybe they’re thinking there’s a $2k / $12k = 17% chance of the battery dying between 120k-150k miles then?

Were those produced by LG or Panasonic?

That seems super misleading. I would expect them to honor the retention terms on the original warranty at first glance and I bet a lot of others would too.

I'd definitely be doing it for 100k miles.

8 years coming up for my 2018 RWD in May 2026. Only at 94k miles though. So not that high mileage.. Offer is tempting as I always supercharge though. Can't decide if worth it still. hah..

Considering I am on my second HV battery, with only 48k miles on the odometer (the replacement was done at 45k) and a current battery/DU warranty that expires Sept 2029, I might bite on this. The fact that I needed a replacement so early already, I think it's a valid concern now.

Same

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I hope they clarify if this is the case. Anyone know otherwise if they’ll honor the 70% threshold for batteries still under the 30k mileage of the extended warranty?

What year is your car? What's the degradation? I'm at 117k too with \~23% degradation on a 22 m3lr. I'm debating this too. If they replaced the battery with 30% degradation, I think I would definitely get this but it seems like the wording makes it not clear if they would replace the battery if it gets below 70% capacity of original.

Can be for individual cell failures like I had in my MYP. Entire battery was just replaced and wouldn’t charge at all after 4 years.

> I would expect them to honor the retention terms Why would you expect that when it says it doesnt?

Insurance is never "worth it" when you don't use it.

> • Failures or degradation specific to Battery capacity or energy retention; Next time try reading first then commenting second.

Even if you did it's not covered... but I get it. Reading is hard.

Do you think Tesla pays MSRP on their own parts?

Yes he is if he's assuming tesla pays MSRP for their own parts and labor. Engage brain THEN fingers.

Read the warranty THEN type a comment. You seem to have gotten it backwards.

this warranty plan would not cover individual cell failures - it specifically excludes energy retention.

Based on the advertising phrasing and label of the product

Warranty: $2000 Chance of battery failing in 30k miles 1 in a 1000?, 10000? Casino bet: $2000 Say you bet on roulette Chance is 1 in 35

Well then perhaps take this as a good bit of learning to READ SHIT

Energy retention is degradation, not a straightforward failure

Which is ironic because this thread started because you failed to read the words that I said quite explicitly and clearly

This is the most Reddit comment 😂

I was looking at it from the standpoint of the insurance buyer. It is a GREAT deal for Tesla. They will likely make money if fewer than 1/3 of the buyers need a new battery.

Hope you plan on hiring an attorney too, because you're going to need one if that's your defense when they reject your claim.

I think 10 years is enough. I would just like them to double from 120k to 240k and keep the 10 year in place. Most people will not keep the car that long.

Usually these don't give warnings. My old lease 21 M3P with only 70k kilometers on it had its battery replaced like a month ago. Got a couple of those bms errors while driving to work and Tesla said to me that the battery needs to be replaced.

Our 2018 Model X P100D failed at 80k.

Shoot, I accidentally deleted my original comment. I got my car Dec 2020. I don’t know what my degradation is, but the battery tested as healthy back in April when we first got access to run the test outside of a service visit.

It would be great if Tesla had a 500k mile battery warranty. In my opinion if Tesla went all in with a battery warranty like that it would out sell every car brand out there. And if one company could do this it would be Tesla.

They can check the logs and only offer this to people with healthy batteries. Easy money.

They most definitely are only offering this to customers who's car's batteries are in exceptional health which they can monitor remotely, which would make it a very easy 2k in their pocket for Tesla.

What model/trim? I've got an '18 P3D at ~111k miles and the capacity seems to be 79% (~245mi). I don't think it'll drop below 70% by 120k miles but considering how it also doesn't get the range it claims it has, I'm feeling iffy about how far I can go and how long it might last.

I've gotten a bunch of responses that in the fine print of the extended warranty it says it does not cover capacity loss. 2018 model 3 long range (rwd)

Yeah, I saw those too. So it basically just covers if my battery dies. My ability to fast charge stopped when a component failed and Tesla didn't consider that part of the drivetrain warranty, either. Either way, sounds like a few people got some bricks and this warranty would've paid off. Hmm I was hoping you'd say LR RWD. I think those get really good range and closer to the stated value. If someone's battery was 5% better with the same car as me, I'd be more disappointed.

That's exactly what I was thinking. If battery issues are really uncommon, why is this so expensive? Makes me think battery failure is way more common than we think as the cars get older.

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Or more in savings. My 22 MYP w/ 28k mi was $32k with FSD. That was $82k + tax and fees new in 2022. 2.5yrs and 28k miles later someone else took a $50k+ bath on it. Not factoring in inflation

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It doesn't cover battery degradation. I literally quoted the line in the post you are replying to here.

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That doesn't make the odds any better.

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OK, you go argue with the warranty company. I'll keep my money and not get rejected when they claim it's degradation that caused failure and require YOU to prove it. This is why people are stupid.

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Your stance is Tesla is good for their word on legal issues? Yeah I'm done here. You did it yourself lol

Odds matter because there is an easy risk/reward calculation that allows you to determine if something is a good financial decision.

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I will give you infinite batter drive unit warranty for only $5000/month.

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That’s unfortunate, if you switch the model year to 2019 then it looks possible to buy a battery only warranty

If I can ask a dumb question. Does this warranty mean an ADDITIONAL 30k miles added to the original battery warranty or if your car reaches 30k miles TOTAL then you’re not eligible. I say this because I’m getting messages for this from Tesla on my 2019 model 3 but have 31k miles on it so I’m trying to figure this out. The language is very weird.

It’s in addition to your warranty. You are eligible to buy this as long as you haven’t exceeded your warranty yet. It extends your HV battery and DU warranty after your 8 year 100k/120k (RWD or AWD) mile warranty. So if you purchase this, your coverage will be extended to 10 years from date of first use, or 130k or 150k miles, whichever comes first.

That’s highly overpriced.

New battery + install is like $10k. This is how all insurance works. It's obviously overpriced compared to just having $10k cash. That's how all insurance works. On average, over time, it would be better off not getting insurance, and just paying cash for everything. If that wasn't true, then insurance wouldn't be profitable.

If I have high (and free) supercharging usage, tow a lot, and am already at 20% degradation at 89k miles on my LR Y, I'd be on the "more likely to use" end of the spectrum, right? Probably makes more sense in my situation?

Mine just died at 62k... So yeah, they know there is a problem. So trying to mitigate the costs some....

On what planet they do? I know it is not on Earth