#[r/cybertruck](https://www.reddit.com/r/cybertruck/) is now private. If you are unable to find it, here is a link to it. As we are not a support sub, please make sure to use the proper resources if you have questions: [Official Tesla Support](https://www.tesla.com/support), [r/TeslaSupport](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaSupport/) | [r/TeslaLounge](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/) personal content | [Discord Live Chat](https://discord.gg/tesla) for anything. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/teslamotors) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Europe continuing to regulate itself to death...
I for one appreciate not having the lax US rules applied to our roads - please please force the vendors to create a safe system that actually works before allowing it on the roads.
So now we got a minimum timeline for robotaxi right. 4 years until it is safe enough for Europe.
None of this matters. If (when?) it's approved in a few countries the rest of the world will demand it. The safety and savings are just too big to ignore
Keep in mind that the FSD in Europe is not on the same level like in the US.
Nope, if you're banning a system that when used has a lower accidents per mile rate compared to manual driving, then you're actually increasing the number of accidents on public roads. That's what Europe is doing here. They're making the roads less safe.
No? How do you figure?
exactly
I'm happy to wait for the rest of the world to continue to beta test until it's better.
I hope Europe will at least get some form of basic Autopilot that’s based on the current FSD models. What we have right now really isn’t up to snuff anymore.
How do you prevent the model from changing lanes?
It does not - you are just spewing Tesla's own made up statistics - there is a reason they are beeing investigated in the US too.
If About_to_change_lanes == TRUE About_to_change_lanes = FALSE
That would be really sad. Especially after recent FSD videos (and threads here) that look quite promising even on older hardware.
If you can actually document that claim of safety performance, then you have the hard part of the approval. Making BS statistics (non t counting user disengagements) is not a safety case though. For 5 years now all Teslas phantom brake at the same spot on the freeway. That’s not exactly safe, nor learning from data or indicating any form of improvement.
Europe again will be left behind as america and china blaze ahead
It's funny that other automakers, Audi, mercedes or BMW are actually offering a better self driving than Tesla does in Europe while not marketing it
Your mistake is thinking FSD is still hand-programmed with code like that. It isn't. It's just a big ML model now.
In principle I agree with you. European roads have far fewer accidents than North American roads. Which is really important context to make that argument. When Tesla first published autopilot numbers I remember it being way better than American drivers but not as good as several European countries I checked.
This is so true but people really don't want to critically think about that stat. If the fsd stack gets into a dangerous situation it just disengages and leaves the driver to figure it out. Of course that helps their stats look better than they really are. Edit: I think folks are missing the point. Tesla's numbers are still going to undercount all of the times that FSD would have caused an accident but a human forces a disengage and prevents the accident. This happens all the time, but sure, it's improving. The point is that it's not an apples-to-apples comparison; you're basically comparing the efficacy of 2 (or maybe 1.5 lol) drivers against 1. Complain all you want but clearly I'm not the only one that sees this if the EU and the US are both highly skeptical of Tesla's claims.
Audi and BMW do not at all. Mercedes has Level 3 but it literally only operates on some California Freeways and some parts of Nevada.
Reading this title I know it’s only a matter of time before a corporation can actually declare war on Europe and somehow I wouldn’t be too surprised if Elon was at the helm when it happens.
This guy \^\^ drank deep from the kool aid
[deleted]
There are multiple studies on this. They have less accidents per mile driven when on auto pilot vs off auto pilot.
Europe have the same AP as you have in the states
Your mistake is thinking that they have no way of affecting the output of the model through filtering training data or altering training algorithms. They could easily also do something like building other inputs than visual into the training data resulting in a model that requires human interaction. The resulting problem is obvious. A model that is locked down won’t deliver any safety benefits. The better it drives the more complacent the driver becomes, and when suddenly human interaction is needed the human driver has poor situational awareness and response time. The effects of partial automation is well understood in aviation, and there should be no doubt that the impact is more severe for driving as pilots are trained on these pitfalls and have much stronger requirements for certification than for driving.
It wouldn't be accurate to compare the global Autopilot accident rate or the US Autopilot accident rate to the Europe human accident rate. Regardless, show me the numbers.
It was a tongue in cheek comment. If they say it might take 4 years to be ready in Europe it will probably be ready in the rest of the world too.
I just care about the facts. It seems that you don't, and you're willing to ignore them if you're paranoid enough. Data matters more than your uninformed opinion.
It’s damn good Europeans is not used as beta tester (read: crash test dummies as recent reports have proofed)…when the system I good enough it will be available in Europe and China, until then it’s reserved for Americans
With limited steering...
That data that’s used to determine that is not exactly bulletproof…but by all means show the data that’s supports that claim
Where tha data on that
Show me a video of one of these brands driving by itself in a city and I will personally wire you the full amount for the car of your choice
yea their innovation track and gdp growth begs to differ
We don’t have FSD in Europe, it’s not legal here
Studies on all drivers? Or only US or EU?
It’s not allowed in China either…and there are areas with level 4 automobiles in Europe…just not Teslas 🤷🏼♂️ Last I read was that FSD was going to be investigated in the US as well
They could train an entirely separate model on only footage of drivers who are staying in a single lane. But that wouldn't be the same model. This isn't as simple as just altering a line of code like it was in the prior architecture. Until you prove that making the model better results in more total accidents, that's just conjecture.
Who said it'll take 4 years to be ready in Europe?
It won't even be ready in 4 years given Elon's track record. I give Tesla 10 years before the robotaxis and whatever the hell a "robovan" is, to make it out the assembly line.
https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport Feel free to try to find issues with the data. I will provide a rebuttal, as I've done this many times before and nobody has found any real holes.
This is horrifying levels of politics. Self-driving is many times safer than human drivers, but because we can’t blame anyone in particular when an accident happens, we’d rather just continue to sacrifice human lives.
You know it counts disengagements that happen before accidents as accidents right? It doesn’t that disregard the incident because it disengages, actually look at the data before forming a conclusion.
Cool. Then why haven’t they applied for the same approval as Mercedes has had for over a year now?
And only under 40 MPH with a ton of other restrictions (again, on freeways). It's a marketing move.
>Marc Van Impe, Tesla’s outgoing head of global vehicle automation and safety policy, **said a crucial decision** on rules governing how the system would work on Britain and Europe’s roads had been delayed, possibly until as late as 2028. (emphasis mine) I understand that the UNECE stuff is complicated, but this article is lackluster. It mentions a LinkedIn post from Impe, but does nothing to really test or back the claims. Surely, if there had been a decision pushing automation back as much as four years, there'd already be coverage on that (which I might have missed), which would also have been more newsworthy than a senior executive moving from one Musk company to another. If anyone has sources to back that up, please do share.
Recent reports? What reports? The actual statistics show that drivers using FSD get into fewer accidents per mile than drivers not using FSD. A report showing a handful of accidents doesn't prove anything beyond the fact that FSD can still get into accidents. You have to compare the FSD accident rate to the non-FSD accident rate to know if it's safer than manual driving or not.
No European manufacturer has anything close to FSD.
They let you configure how aggressive to be with lane changes in the settings. The ML model will take input and generate an output, but not all of that output needs to be applied to the actual vehicle controls
can you share that source? So if someone slams on the brakes before fsd disengages. then it doesn't count as fsd fault?
People usually let autopilot do the easy driving on the motorway in clear weather and take over if the conditions are bad or the road difficult. Autopilot could be significantly worse than human drivers and still come out ahead in the statistics.
That’s not FSD, that’s AP…also known as ACC. That’s legal in Europe and most cars have a system like that
Maybe Europe will get it's own Department of Government Efficiency if it goes well in the US.
https://www.engadget.com/transportation/evs/teslas-fsd-is-under-federal-investigation-after-four-reduced-visibility-crashes-140248063.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAELQR3ii4QIAfDugEUehDd3l13v2kOOlGGQWVWMIg6Dj_X519wRC-auaKPv70zUqSxAVWrmU06-FVSLmN66BwX9oRDo_yk0WSsuO2oHXH3Un8l7TYllG1K-eRFHcLDD6cbnfz62LRk9lU0K06e-06s473-Po_x-aSLQk3kPvjNNz https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/25/23737972/tesla-whistleblower-leak-fsd-complaints-self-driving
Chill/Average/Assertive are only available when V11 is enabled, not V12. The new Chill/Standard/Hurry are enabled on V12 on the highway (in 12.5.6 and above), but they haven't explained how they work. Could be three separate models. How could you detect if the output is a lane change and block it from being applied to the vehicle controls? That's the problem.
We've already been demanding the version they have in the US for a long time, we still haven't received it.
Ready for that one: https://www.youtube.com/live/Hl1zEzVUV7w?t=5349 (at 1:29:09)
Because it’s a neural net, you feed it input and get output. You have to have expected output in the first place to train it, which means they have already mapped those outputs to certain aspects such as wheel turn angle, speed, acceleration, etc There’s not just some magical linkage between a model and the vehicle’s controls, there still needs to be some code to apply the output from the model. They just don’t need to write the decision making code to generate the target output anymore Source: machine learning specialization MS in CS and friends in the autonomous driving industry
Teslas with FSD on are 90% less likely to get into an accident.
They should still have this level of control over the neutral networks actions and while not being hand coded it should be aware that it's doing a lane change.
Formal report from Tesla.
If you're using FSD and disengage, for 5 seconds Tesla counts that accident as FSD being active.
The outputs of the neural net are acceleration values, steering angle values, and turn signal values. How do you know when the output corresponds to a lane change versus something like turning for a bend in the road? If you can figure that out then obviously you can block or modify the output using traditional code before it reaches the wheels, but the problem is you can't figure that out. And if it matters, I'm a CS graduate as well. Glad to be discussing with someone who understands this stuff 🙂
they can't study the EU cause they aren't allowed to run there....
If, as commenters have said, FSD isnt available in europe then there are no numbers to show
https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport > To ensure our statistics are conservative, we count any crash in which Autopilot was deactivated within 5 seconds before impact
Doing God's work!
I love the truth.
That's not possible. Would be nice if it was, but it isn't. And that's not exactly a deal-breaker that should stop them from using an architecture that's far better at driving.
This is either nonsense or tesla is really bad in what they do.
Is that why fsd cant even drive autonomously in single lane tunnel of vegas loop?
You can easily overcome this by changing the destination behind the scene to always be straight, even though you show different things on nav. Which should be one of the inputs to the model
That’s a video posted by Tesla! If I were pushing FSD I would say the same…but I’m not I’m a customer and do not take Teslas word for it. You would have to give som third party data on that.
Come on man…we have to rely on third party data not a manufacturers data
All Tesla has to do is be liable for their car! They can’t say this is the greatest self driving car ever but if anything does go worrying it’s driver error! Until they do that, they can’t be taken seriously.
Oh, so you're just going to say they fabricated this data? Typical.
You kinda forgot good old europe here... USA is not the world, buddy.
Just EU things. Regulation to the death.
Said by someone who clearly doesn't understand how ML models work. Ever heard of the term "black box" used in this context? If not, that should point you in the right direction, but I'd be happy to explain as well.
If they focused their engineering resources on that right now I'm quite confident it could do that, and fairly quickly. In fact, they just did something like that for their Robotaxi reveal event, where they focused their engineering resources on enabling the cars to drive autonomously in that controlled environment (which is still more complex than a single-lane tunnel).
Nav is obviously one of the inputs. The problem is that humans change lanes even when the nav is saying to go straight. For example, to pass a slower car. So no, that's not a solution. You're thinking the right way though. I've thought about it for quite some time and I can't come up with a solution other than training an entirely separate model using only videos of drivers staying in a single lane.
The FSD part, yes. But they could compare driver safety in different countries by the amount of accidents and take these results to project if the FSD statistics are still coming out on top of human drivers. My 2022 M3P cannot be trusted in anything but very simple situations with normal Autopilot. I highly doubt it would drive safer than most drivers.
Well, my 2024 Tesla M3 likes to try and get me rear-ended at least once a week with the phantom breaking that has been a problem since Tesla first started. Maybe the EU has a point.
What you linked is exactly what I said: A handful of accidents. That doesn't prove anything beyond the fact that accidents do occasionally happen with FSD. It doesn't prove whether accidents happen more or less often on FSD than they do when people are driving manually. Keep in mind there are many thousands of accidents every single day with humans just driving themselves. I shouldn't have to explain this, but here we are.
I understand you have a hard time understanding this…I’m pointing to articles proving Tesla is underreporting accidents with FSD…that’s why a third party is important. Do you smoke?
Where in those articles you linked do they claim that Tesla is under-reporting accidents? I can't find that anywhere. I see claims of accidents and mishaps that occurred, but no claims that the data Tesla released under-reported on accidents. Can you provide a quote?
I read a while ago that this is being pushed by Japan and Germany to protect their auto industry. They'll be allowed when they catch up.
If you’re unable to read other article as than those provide by Tesla, here you go: https://youtu.be/FGFoV7NPR9k?si=wFtWb50zK7NRidwE (from about 5mins). But tell me, do you smoke?
I'll watch the video when I leave work. But please, do quote what part of those articles you linked claims that Tesla under-reported accidents. I read the articles and didn't find that. I suspect you just made that up and will try to avoid this. If not, provide the quote. And no, I don't smoke. Did you graduate from a school of any sort?
Really? I have not had any phantom braking issues with mine since the mid 2023-ish updates.
Make it RHD ready and bring it to NZ and Australia. FSD in its current form wouldn’t need any approval in either country, while NZ doesn’t seem to be pretty open to driverless cars
Yeah, I have no clue. It's all a magical "black box" and no one knows what it does. There is no way to control them like midjourney having policies to not generate porn or various ChatGPT models not telling you how to build a bomb, latest models even having layers preventing them from tricking them via roleplaying or overriding previous commands... Thank you for providing me your very detailed expert knowledge about neural networks being "black boxes". Haven't heard about that before.
I didn't say you can't control them. You can absolutely influence their behavior with training. That's why I said the way Tesla could prevent lane changes is to train an entirely separate model only on videos of humans driving in a single lane. But there's no "awareness" of a lane change, and it's not nearly as simple as changing a line of code.
oh awful awful EU, the union that brought us terrible things like right to repair laws, EU wide roaming laws and easy passport free travel. Oh how terrible it is.
Less than 20% of homes in the EU have air conditioning.
Data can be tampered with, VW did that years ago. Why should a company run by a guy spreading anti jewish conspiracy theories online be trusted more than VW? I believe in self driving, but Tesla has not even managed to get permission to have driverless cars in the closed system LV loop yet.. And that's in Las Vegas...
\*lacks citation
What kind of an argument is that? A lot of our houses are not made by cheap cardboard like US McMansions too. Many homes are also built to handle heat in other ways. In my country heatpumps are the preferred solution btw. In many ways superior to AC units.
> Most of the reports are not written as summarized here, noting clearly that Tesla counts a “crash” as an airbag deployment. (The most recent report expands that definition to include use of other active restraint systems, such as the seatbelt tightener, but does not seem to affect the numbers much, so it may have always been their definition.) They state that this definition should catch most crashes over 12mph. The rest of the world, including NHTSA, tend to consider a crash as one that is reported — either to police, or to insurance. No good data exists on the exact fraction of crashes seen by police or insurance which involve airbags or these other restraints. The [SAE reported](https://www.sae.org/standardsdev/tsb/cooperative/airbag.htm) an estimate of about 210,000 airbag deployments per year or around 14 million miles per deployment. That would suggest Teslas are having these crashes much more often than average, which probably isn’t true, but suggests to us that only a small fraction of the 6 million crashes reported to police involve the airbag, and so putting the two rates on the same chart is inappropriate. - Forbes "Tesla Again Paints A Crash Data Story That Misleads Many Readers" 2023
While doing FSD, I click the right scroll button to the right to bring up the FSD menu and select ‘Minimal Lane Changes’. After that, if it still activates the turn signal, I cancel it right away. This is the only solution for now.
What third party data shows otherwise?
Delete your comment or issue a correction. This is ridiculous.
The minimal lane changes setting does nothing in V12. The setting still exists on your car because on highways it reverts to V11, where that setting does work because V11 is hand-coded.
It doesn't change really at all, up to 95 kph only in certain conditions for Mercedes DRIVE PILOT on very specific freeways and only under very specific condtions in Germany And BMW doesn't have anything until next year at the earliest (QCA and Arriver is doing a huge part/most of it), Audi hasn't really shown anything yet themselves (could be CARIAD or it may just be Samsung since they tend to use Samsung a lot these days).
Some Full Self-Driving issues: * **Merging** - When there are two lanes and you are entering a freeway, the Tesla will play chicken with the car on your side as the lane turns into one. I have to take the wheel and get onto the next lane cuz not even jesus will take that one. * **Carpool Disregard** - When you are on the freeway, the Tesla will try to get into the carpool lane even though there is only one person in the car. (that's an expensive ticket) * **Sudden Stops** - When driving in city roads, sometimes the Tesla will stop abruptly, freaking the hell out of people inside the car and people driving behind. Someone can rear end you. I like the technology but it can freak the hell out of you sometimes and I am pretty even tempered. I can see how many people would just go "oh no no no no no no no...turn that shit off."
The GDPR is a joke. They do far more harm than good, they will regulate the EU into irrelevance, already happen with AI, and the European economy will suffer
Just FSD or other companies too?
What is this even about? Is there some European law on AC installations based on temperature?
Is there any other company that doesnt use lidar?
Self driving technology will be a very unusual technology in terms of what countries adopt and which do not. I am typing this from Bangkok. We are already have robot taxi services being adopted in the US and also in China. Both countries have cars right now driving up empty to take someone to their destination. Both countries will want to offer this service in Bangkok at some point. But why would the Thai government allow? There is a zillion jobs in Bangkok with delivering food, taxis, Grab/Robinhood/InDrive (Thai equivalents to Uber/Lyft). So we could have robot taxi service fully adopted in US and Chinese cities and none in a city like Bangkok.
That’s strange - I thought Germany (where I am) already has regulation for autonomy in place. But anyway, frankly: I don’t care too much about autonomy as long as not even the normal AP functions work properly, I mean really, I LOVE my Y… …but AP is really SO FLAWED (compared to competition): 1) start to decelerate BEFORE a change of speed limit Driving from country-road into a town -> speed limit changes from 100km/h to 50km/h. and very often there’s a speed camera about 50m behind the entry/sign. So what happens is: car drives 100km/h. Enters the city. THEN starts to brake. 50m later it has decelerated to maybe 85. That would cost 1 month of license suspended and 400€ fine. For me, not for the moron that coded that crap. Can anyone explain to me why the car doesn’t start decelerating BEFORE entering the town/change of speed limit? That city border has been in that place since before the invention of the transistor yet my computer on wheels can’t read the map. Recently drove a VW: it started to inform me 500m ahead of time and we were at the new max speed by the time the limit changed. 2) driving on the autobahn right lane, approaching a _slower _ car in the lane left of me: AP will without hesitation try to overtake on the right side. I don’t know the legal situation in other countries, but that’s TOTALLY forbidden here and very VERY dangerous since no one expects it and the delta-v could be dozens of km/h. How does the car not see that there’s another car to the left and decelerate?!? 3) „Rettungsgasse“: it is MANDATORY in Germany that if it’s stop-and-go in a jam on the autobahn and you are in the left lane that you ALWAYS yield to as far left as possible to make way for emergency services. This works quite fine, usually everyone complies. Except for the stupid Tesla driver on AP: AP will always keep to the center of the lane and you can’t convince it to keep further left. So I usually deactivate AP to not embarrass myself. Frankly, I understand the last one maybe nice to have, but 2) is really dangerous and shouldn’t be too hard to implement. And 1), really, that’s just totally ridiculous. This is a joke. This is just SUCH bad design… I mean who thought it world be a good idea to build it like that in the first place?!? Can anyone tell me why this wasn’t fixed YEARS ago?!? How hard can it be to check the map and brake in time?!? At long as I can’t even trust my car to not do 100 in a 50, I’m sure as he** not going to trust it further.
I don't know if the economy will suffer, but I know the people will profit.
[removed]
You can prove a negative. You claim it you prove it.
What about crashes that didn't happen because the driver intervened in time?
Big SEC no-no to lie on formal reports. This is relatively easily verifiable too. The negative sentiment about Tesla is so stupid.
B/c VW literally killed people wity emissions.
[deleted]
Having 1/10th the crashes that have airbag deployments is an extremely safe software upgrade. Hey if you don't care about your life you do you.
https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport Formal Tesla report
What about them?
[removed]
FSD can’t possibly be safer then a human using only cameras. They need more technology if ever expecting it to drive in rain or fog.
Nah, it’s simply way too dangerous because the tech isn’t there yet. Phantom breaking Tesla’s are still a huge problem in 2024
Yeah, Tesla just doesn't want to/can't pass the certification that other car manufacturers already passed.
If Tesla would prove that, they could get certified. Why don't they?
I agree with you. These things all feel minor in isolation but all of these quirks really add up and create many scary and also embarrassing situations. You're referencing AP but my FSD experiences are riddled with very similar quirks, enough to where I have never found myself questioning if I'm even needed in the car.
I don’t know, CommaAI 🤷♂️
Similar stat for FSD specifically at 1:29 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl1zEzVUV7w
The problem in many parts of Europe is the streets are much narrower than in the US.
I assume that would be autopilot on highway only vs diverse traffic with human drivers.
This would be the same in every field. Just like you would not trust tobbaco company issued research about cancer from smoking.
I think it's mimicking the typical (less safe) US driver.
>Less than 20% of homes in the EU have air conditioning. This is not the flex that you think it is.
I tried full self driving a few days ago. Turned it on, just wanted it to continue straight because that was the lane I needed to be in a few miles down. It immediately changed lanes. Turned it off, found the minimal lane changes setting and turned FSD back on with it engaged.. Within thirty seconds it turned off the blinker to change lanes. So I turned off FSD. It takes less brain power to drive without it anyways since it constantly nags.
V12.5.4.1 will sometime brakes at a green light. It's not something drivers behind expect to happen...
They've already stated they're planning to have the first real meeting about beginning the meetings to approve any autonomous driving, starting in 2026. At their pace, yes, 2028 sounds about right before anything actually gets approved. With any luck, Mercedes or VW makes progress sooner so it magically speeds up all the sudden.
The version in the US is an in development version which has changed tremendously over the past 5+ years. Something closer to v13 will be a more complete product that can be easily petitioned for.
What would be different about that with FSD? From all we know, the FSD stack is actually better than the Autopilot stack for this stuff.
Look at Germany's stagnation - complete overregulation and no innovation nor funding of innovation. Leading to shrinking and minute growth at best in the past decade. It is strangling the economies.
What is this supposed harm of the GDPR?
Yeah right now it's not as harsh as phantom breaking but jerky acceleration at some crossings. It's something I noticed starting with the first release v12. This seems to have been fixed in ~12.5.6 based on what's being said about fixed to acceleration.
There's a toggle for HOV lanes under autopilot settings is there not? And I'm not sure about the sudden stops? Are you saying your car comes to full stops?
The jackery of EU regulations just into Autopilot is more dangerous than if those regulations weren't there. Car won't just merge or take the offramp unless you manually tell it to, so when you do, it jerks over because it couldn't just do it smoothly. Car just aborts tighter turns because of regulation about how much the steering wheel can turn, rather than just safely proceeding. Numerous others.
I tested FSD on the highway and I swear I was fighting it trying to do some asinine lane changes for most of the drive (e.g. not enough space on changing lane to merge / not seeing vehicle approaching) or trying to merge from the acceleration lane while still running 25 MPH
Says who? I haven't seen any law or regulation that says they just need to show a lower accident rate than manual driving and they'll get approved. They already release data showing a lower accident rate than manual driving, and they're not approved.
1. Waymo doesn't sell their tech to other companies. 2. Waymo isn't European, nor are they a car manufacturer.
I'm not talking about the excessive acceleration while starting on a green light that was mainly present with 12.3.6 but while crossing a green light, the car (with 12.5.4.1) will sometimes "panic" and apply the brakes.
That's simply not true. Mercedes got their level 3 solution (hands off, eyes off) [approved in Germany](https://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/mercedes-benz-increases-top-speed-of-its-level-3-automated-driving-system-to-95-km-h/) on highways up to 95km/h (60mph). UNECE WP.29 allows for level 3 systems up to 130km/h (80mph), and this is what Mercedes is working on next. There is also nothing stopping any manufacturer from releasing a level 2 solution that drives on non-highway roads. The capabilities this system needs to posses are [described by UNECE](https://unece.org/sites/default/files/2024-02/ECE_TRANS_WP.29_2024_37e.pdf). See section 6.3 for example. Yes, the rules for level 5 have not yet been released, but Tesla doesn't have a level 5 system in production anyway. This is just posturing by Tesla so they can blame regulators for not being able to release FSD in Europe, when the real problem is that FSD does not meet the legal requirements.
HOV settings? I'll check it out, but I doubt it. I've seen this issue before. The sudden stops were insane. It's a sudden stop from like 35 mph and then a slight roll forward as if it had seen a ghost or something. Freaked the hell out of me. Thankfully the guy driving behind me on a jeep was smart enough to keep his distance and not be on on his phone so he was able to stop too, otherwise he would have fucked my car up real good. If Tesla doesn't address stuff like that, people are going to start thinking it's possessed by the devil and not want to ride in it. That sudden stop feels like running into a concrete wall. It says that FSD is fully supervised....but by who? OMG, just got goosebumps on my arms and a cold chill.
https://preview.redd.it/7mfiaucm58wd1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=a97af2c4e15b553d37224a1d79f1eb641eda05e1
Yeah I haven't had any sudden stops since way before 12.X. It definitely doesn't do that on 12.5.4
Thanks. I've set that setting to Off before..but it still tries to get into the Carpool lanes during FSDriving. I'll try it again next time I drive.
Pending regulatory approval.
I've never heard of FSD coming to a complete stop like that. I'd recalibrate the cameras at the very least
No, it is specific highways even, not all highways. The rules dictating every action must be human confirmed strictly on Tesla these past years, while then giving Mercedes' garbage system that fails and needs interventions allll the time is direct example of the horseshittery going on.
Me neither, but there's a first time for everything. It's scary af.
Many also believe that tesla will finish FSD every year dince 2014. The proof is in the pudding
So basically the German brands estimate they need 4 more years to be on the same level as Tesla
V11 was smooth at least with speed and only braked incorrectly because it couldn't Intuit the context of turning lane specific red signals. V12 does the rapid jerky tapping of the accelerator through random minor controlled intersections. It's clearly just a regression, I was hoping they would have put out a minor patch sooner with a fix.
dont belive MSM,,,like they say : rockets cant land,; Cybertruck is just a prototype ; Laptop on wheels never work ......
Very good points, I remember one area where it was 100 but AP was absolutely convinced it was unrestricted. Drove past multiple "100" signs, the car showed it on the visualization, but it was SURE that the Autobahn was unrestricted. If I had trusted that instead of my memory, I easily could have had a very suspended license. One of the bigger annoyances I have it when the car goes past a "bei Nässe" sign on the Autobahn. Since the camera is unable to read the text, it just assumes that's the new speed and starts slowing down regardless of the weather. What's interesting is that I rented one back in the states in September and AP was just MUCH more confident than here. I recently drove a BMW i5 and their equivalent of EAP, DAPP, handles MUCH better than EAP. It's amazing what happens when you train a car to drive on a certain style of road. BMW trains on European roads, Tesla trains on US roads, and it shows.
So in the US it’s fine if you tell the officer: „Yeah I’m really sorry that I am doing 60 in a 35 (or whatever), but come on, the sign is just 200m behind me, how could I possibly react that quick?“ I’m not sure this behavior would fly in ANY country ANYWHERE.
Does for me. Hw4
Calm down
Starlink is all about leverage over governments.
Well considering that it has two sources for limits: map and camera/signs; I think I would differentiate between - places where the map is plain wrong. That happens rather frequently actually, e.g. if there was a construction site with a temporary limit that gets removed afterwards. - also the cars „sign reading“ skills have considerably improved over the years, but it still makes lots of mistakes. (That other brands have long overcome) Both are maybe not „fine“, but I can live with them as the technical limitations it currently has and I hope it’ll improve over time. It’s not intentional, they just couldn’t do it better. But the fact that it in general never ever nowhere starts to brake in advance, that is INTENTIONAL. Someone wrote the code that way, on purpose. And I can’t wrap my head around why you would do that. And they never fixed it despite this being a GIGANTIC flaw that should raise the reddest of flags. THAT is what I call outright despicable.
Oh so now Elon’s companies are attacking other countries?
Were you one of those console war kids when your were young? Why be this way? People expect 3rd party data. Independent testing. That’s not new.
Strange how other brands are able to meet the criteria, just Tesla isn’t.
Why would I want an AC? I have a house made of proper material that never gets too hot to be uncomfortable. Why should I pay for an appliance I would never use?
Technically AC units ARE heatpumps. If used for heating they are similar in consumption as heatpumps with a water-tank. Actually AC units are one cheap and easy way to go if you replace an old gas burner system that can’t handle the lower temperatures of a heat pump.
Tesla, fix your unbelievable bad crappy assistant systems you call „AP“, THEN we can talk about „autonomy“. By the way: none of the other brands i drove this year has so many of the bugs that you have, so maybe come down from your high horse. You have been overtaken left and right and don’t even notice. See my other posting further up for a list.
I would find it frightening to grant permission for autonomous driving to a company that can’t even get its current systems to work and is behind other manufacturers, for instance, in lane-keeping systems and adaptive cruise control. I just test-drove the new Model 3, and it’s unbelievable; it brakes dangerously in the same spots on the highway where my old Tesla did 3 years ago. And it steers left to avoid some imanigery objects same roads. And these are some of the most frequently used roads in my country, not some rarely used backwoods dirt roads, but the busiest roads in my country.
Also: On the autobahn on AP, driving say 130kmh in the middle lane, trucks and Hollanders doing 80kmh in the right. Then in the left lane someone passes with 180kmh (creating a high delta v) this makes the Tesla brake HARD for some reason?! This is so dangerous and scares everyone in and around the car. I don't understand how this is not fixed day one? It should be an instant recall. The idea of these cars being self driving is a complete joke.
No one says they are lying…but every company would bend the truth to fit their agenda
hahaha trucks and *hollanders*. Thats spot on, why does the dutch drive so slow and nervous?
If I had a caravan on the hook I would also drive slower. Maybe they are so used to trailering that they don’t really notice when the have it detached :)
I actually got a ticket outside of Trier due to this once. I got unlucky with the hill angle that my headlights were hitting the speed sign so I couldn't read it. By the time I could and start slowing down, FLASH! Ticket! Fortunately it was less than 20 over so I just had to deal with a fine.
Great idea...
Remember we are talking about legal approved level 3 here. Tesla is approved for level 3 in 0 states on 0 streets with 0 kph world wide.
Because Tesla isn't as far ahead as Mercedes-Benz or BMW lol, simple as that
It is not straight forward to do... The FSD is fully AI controlled and it is not easy to just remove some of available outcomes. A new model that does not change lanes needs to be trained.
Exactly. It is incredibly impressive what FSD team has achieved. But it is easier for me to drive myself honestly than to monitor it.
Interesting, they do not even have a level 3 approval like Mercedes has, but claim the problem is Europe.
Meeting? Wasn't there Tesla AI twitter post about FSD coming to Europe in 2025 (regulatory pending which means what? Is this fake annoucement or fake account? [https://x.com/Tesla\_AI/status/1831565197108023493](https://x.com/Tesla_AI/status/1831565197108023493)
It’s about the requirement for confirmation of actions, right now the car can’t do anything save change speed without human input, which Tesla is trying to overcome.
No thanks. As a passerby, I don't care who is responsible when getting hit by car. What I do care about is whether the vehicle is safe or not.
Tesla isn't Level 3. It's level 2, that's the whole supervised part about it. We aren't talking strictly about Level 3 were comparing self driving features between Mercedes and Tesla. Mercedes has Level 3 but in such a limited area and in limited scenarios it's a marketing gimmic than it is anything else and it doesn't have a wider area 'Level 2.'
They should be thankful for the extra time. I've had FSD since v11 and absolutely would not trust it with my family. It's a remarkable feat of engineering but no where near 'complete'. 5000lb cars aren't something you want to put in the hand of people with the "move fast and break things" mentality. The first time FSD kills someone, the govt will shut it down. Musk needs to stfu and let them polish this thing instead of pushing to rush this out. IMO robotaxi is more likely to be a 2037 story than 2027, especially in Europe where they're just looking into FSD. Telsa still doesn't have permission in the US for cars without petals and steering wheels let alone FSD. It's all a fugazi
Yes because the scope is different. Creating a level 2 system and getting it legal is, most likely, not worth the trouble if you already have a working level 3 that you can push instead. Bad mouthing Mercedes is very unasked for. They are ahead of Tesla in terms of self driving cars. Tesla can't even achieve Level 3 in their single pipe tunnels specifically build for Tesla. What Tesla is doing is having a very good level 2 system and pulling an Elon by creating so much semi legal statements and videos to confuse and trick customers to believe he has a level 3-4 system that drives you to the mall and back and surely is 100% self driving in 2 years because it already works so well! How about starting with even level 3 in one city.
Yeah, that is weird. I like to think the car is „scared“ by the other car passing that fast.
They aren't ahead though in practicality. A self driving car that only works in very specific areas that, at low speeds and in only specific conditions is a gimmic. Tesla could demonstrate that by having essentially hard coded models that would need to be updated anytime road conditions change. Tesla's approach is far different and their aim isn't having a Level 3 system that only works in specific areas and condtions and practicality speaking their system is endlessly more useful as well as manageable. Tesla is planning to replicate most likely a very Mercedes way of doing it in narrow areas for Robotaxi, and in that case that's Level 4 or higher since it doesn't control a steering wheel. That again has less practicality than FSD (supervised)
europoor gonna europoor
True and false. True: Tesla currently has the better system for the customer False: Everything else. Having a Level 3 systems is several more magnitudes more difficult than a Level 2 system. Legal requirements for level 3 are crazy. So you cannot extrapolate from anything level 2 to level 3. Also Tesla says their system is much different and can do it. They have NEVER shown it working at level 3. Maybe it cannot. That is the only possible explanation after like 1 years of delay to get to level 3+ . They even cut down their cost and systems while on the way. Everyone else would have added sensors to try to finally make it and then reduce the sensors after making it.
No, but usually there aren’t officers or speed cameras, so your tolerance for slowing down after the sign increases. I am definitely a driver that doesn’t slow down until after passing the sign. I think that’s generally the case here too
Have you cleared your camera calibration in the service menu? When recalibrating only drive in the middle lane on highway with clear indication markings.
Did you reply to the wrong post? I'm just stating that Tesla's stats as usual are misleading, and if you argue something, never use a manufacturer's own info. The 90% you posted is a Tesla claim and misleading/wrong (it is probably better than average car, but that's cause lots don't have modern safety features, should only be compared against cars in the same price class/time).
I'm assuming we all have to wait for at least v12.5.6 and newer.
That's no longer true. The document I linked has section 6.2. for lane changes, and more specifically section 6.2.9.2. for "system-initiated lane changes". This is opposed to section 6.2.9.1. for "driver-confirmed lane changes". Perhaps the rules are complicated to implement in order to offer these features, but there is no legal barrier to Tesla offering these features in Europe.
From my experience, autopilot is terrible. In the past few days when I tried using it for like a total of 3 minutes: - it went into an intersection at 50 km/h and ignored a stop sign. - It couldn't comprehend directions at traffic lights. - It randomly started accelerating while approaching a closed railway crossing. That doesn't sound safe to me.
I got into a fender bender and reported it, that's not a safety critical event. Tesla counting crashes that could actually cause harm is a better metric for actual safety. Being 1/10th as likely or w/e it is to get into a crash is a very big deal. They're not lying on a formal report. That could land someone in jail. It would be very easy for the gov to fact check their claim.
The regulatory pending refers to this same decision being delayed in op
Level 2 -> 3 IMO is more about whether Tesla wants to accept liability vs keeping liability with the passenger. On Level 3, if the "FSD" causes an accident of any kind (any cause at all) the liability rests with the car manufacturer. Level 2 it stays with the Passenger. From a technical/technology perspective I don't see any real roadblocks for achieving SAR J3016 Level 3 for Tesla except for \*maybe\* due to Tesla using a softer OS but that has its own caveats (especially considering even new AUTOSAR isn't that 'hard' anymore): 1. Conditional automation, i.e. if I need to disengage I need to notify the passenger that I am disengaging so it can take over. That's different than it being 'supervised.' Technically FSD could meet this. 2. Redundancy, the Tesla HW3 and 4 already have redundant processors for FSD/Autopilot. 3. Operational Design Domain, this really is where it changes and why Mercedes is limited to only certain situations even in 'certified areas.' This is about clearly defining when it can be used (clear weather, extremely clear lines, only under a certain speed etc.) 4. Driver monitoring, something Tesla already has as well but Mercedes still requires this so the driver is capable of taking control when needed (i.e. someone needs to be seated in the driver's seat and alive/awake) 5. Transition Demand, needs to give ample time to the driver to take over when it must be disengaged. From what we know today Tesla has also no issue meeting this. This is really relevant for #9 below as this is defined by FTTIs. 6. Data Recording, again no issue and nothing special here from 2 -> 3. 7. Cyber security, as far as we know Teslas and Mercedes are just as cyber secure however another caveat being the OS (#9) and maybe Mercedes has a lot of FIPS 140 or something certifications for SFA/crypto key handling and stuff and Tesla doesn't (doesn't mean they are intrinsically different, one is just certified vs not certified) 8. Validation and testing, this is probably another area where Tesla just needs to do more work. It's requires extensive real-world and simulated testing to verify the autonomous system operates correctly. You could argue as Level 2 is "beta" all video Tesla is recording is amounting hundreds to thousands if not millions more hours of evidence in FSD's operation. 9. Software and Sensor Suite, this again could be another potential but somewhat arbitrary issue for Tesla \*maybe.\* I am assuming Mercedes isn't using Automotive Linux or RT Linux. Tesla does (sort of, they use a modified Linux kernel and OS that makes it "real time-ish"), so it isn't using a hard RTOS like Greenhills integrity or VxWorks or etc. This may or may not be the only real roadblock that I see and TBH it again is kind of arbitrary as 'real time' is all about also what the Fault Tolerant Time Interval (FTTI) requirement is. if it's in the microseconds? hard to do without a hard scheduler where even VxWorks' not fully hard scheduler may struggle. mSecs? Definitely more doable in Automotive Linux or "Real Time" Linux. 10. Regulatory compliance, this is honestly the probably real issue apart from the obvious of accepting liability vs the passenger continue to hold liability. Tesla doesn't test like how the NHTSA requires them to test which is actually *ok* in my opinion. It's like avionics the FAA doesn't \*require\* avionics to be certified to DO-178/DO-254 for safety certification but it just ***very strongly suggests*** as they are such common development standards. Keep in mind automotive regulators aren't like avionics regulators. The FAA is all upfront certification and risk mitigation. When it comes to Automotive regulations however, the onus is more about liability *if things go wrong.* (one is more proactive vs retroactive) So while you're doing a DO-178/DO-254 cert for the FAA for an avionics unit that's a different paradigm than hiring some consultants who agree that your automotive design meets ISO26262 in case it fails and you get sued and investigated. Anyhow that's my 2c on it. I did automotive design (including safety design) for a few years but tbh I am not perfect and I am more an avionics guy so I could be incorrect here (probably am as I made some assumptions). I just happened to fall into an automotive role as a brief stint as COVID destroyed the avionics industry so I am sure there are some ISO26262 and other experts who can correct me.
Okay so 2025 become 2026 which become 2027, etc.
Nope 2025 beccame 2026. With journalists predicting 2028 as the decision date.
These rules are very very specific, look like the current feature set of a particular implementation
FSD has been used cumulatively for over 1.3 billion miles. Your opinion is based on a test drive in a country where it’s not even available.
I’ve had the worst phantom braking on 12.5.4 since v11. 12.5.4.1 has been better. I think 2 events on this version.
[removed]
The 12.5.5.2 notes I just saw online does explicitly mention "Improved performance at intersections and stops" and "more natural lane change decisions" Hoping 12.5.5/.6 creates a strong foundation for them to build off of
I have a lot of issues with fsd but autopilot is better than any system I’ve seen on competitors. Super cruise is pretty cool but disconnects if you blink without much warning. Lexus system was pretty much garbage, the VW system I tested wasn’t great
No they very much have control over the lane change frequency. Driver profiles wouldn’t work otherwise. They could also just ship V11 in Europe, it has an option to disable lane changes. It’s V11 on the highway in the US still anyway till 12.5.6.
You might have a point here, but it is still just another input variable for the model. It doesn't prevent lane changes, but discourages it. Not a bad thing if you train the model not to change lanes in regular traffic at all, but just try to avoid obstacles if collision otherwise imminent. V11 is what we get in Europe for TACC/Autopilot. It is absolute crap when you try to use it outside of Highway - exp. just to use cruise control to maintain speed while going through a village. It gets scared very easily and constantly brakes unnecessarily. It is very rough in Stop-Start traffic too.
2) driving on the autobahn right lane, approaching a \_slower \_ car in the lane left of me: AP will without hesitation try to overtake on the right side. I don’t know the legal situation in other countries, but that’s TOTALLY forbidden here and very VERY dangerous since no one expects it and the delta-v could be dozens of km/h. How does the car not see that there’s another car to the left and decelerate?!? This is wrong, at least on my FSD and Tesla I have to press watt pedal to "overtake on the right". And I am challenging this stupid rule because of the stupid left-lane-huggers who slow the traffic.
Okay stop trolling, nothing new regarding false Musk promises.
Maybe because we are not used to the high speeds on the Autobahn. And all the hills of course. Interestingly, here in Holland the German drivers are usually bad with lane hogging. They often don't want to go to the right hand lane. I guess we all have something to complain about visitors 😉
Utter BS, just tesla blaming others while its their tech thats not up to it. Self driving Up until level 4 (High Driving Automation) is already defined by the EU, only level 5 still needs to be finalized. Tesla doesnt have level 3 (audi and mercedes have and these are driving in germany) let alone level 5 .
Both an AP1 Model S and HW3 Model S both Rettungsgasse in heavy traffic, as it uses the car in front of it and moves over like they do, and back into the lane as well. Never, ever, ever have I seen in years the car try to overtake on the right. IN FACT, if the car is in the right lane, and a car in the left/middle lane is going slower, the car will slow down to actively not pass someone on the right despite what speed you have set, and you have to press the accelerator for it to pass on the right. Both of those have been this way for a long time, you're just very wrong on those. The decelerate early thing is very true, though. The latest update specifically improved that, but it's still not early enough for these fucking German right-after-the-sign blitzers.
Sorry, but I drive my Y since two years and before that a Model 3 for one year. Both of these have the described behavior. The Y is HW 3 and always updated. And I’m posting here not because I notice some odd behavior once - I listed these because they literally happen every single time the situation happens. Every single time I get into a jam (and I often do because there’s construction around me on the autobahn) it will always keep to the center of the lane, making me first nervous, then angry and then I disengage and drive manually).
Those “cheap cardboard McMansions” are far more energy efficient than most european homes Heatpumps are a type of AC
Tens of thousands of our grandmas not dying from the heat during the summer is actually a flex
You mean German brands want to go backwards?
Good thing Tesla itself would never delay self-driving by that much, right guys?
Yes, autopilot does that. I’m talking about FSD.
It has been published many times and can easily be googled.
You probably tested autopilot in Europe. FSD is totally different. Watch some youtube vids about it
In Belgium the Hollanders drive 100km/u on the left lane and create traffic jams
So you should have no issue providing the source.
Yeah I’m not your personal Google.
You throw out claims, you need to be able to document your claims. Not just "source: trust me bro"
Login is required to comment.
Login with Google