Student Is Denied License Because Tesla Has FSD / Too Many Safety Features

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You'd think the DMV would want more safety features.

Student should be able to demonstrate to DMV inspector that FSD and other features of concern are *turned off*. Otherwise, time to bring an older ICE car in to DMV to use.

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I’ve driven a smart car for four years and my parallel parking skills are intact.

So far..

Same here. But I can see how people who get too used to the technology will lax their skills for when they have to drive something else. We're lucky in that we have our MYLR and an 18 year old ICE with no cameras or anything. Jumping between the cars is fun because it challenges you to remember those things.

I remember when we were told that calculators would make us forget how to do math.

Not gonna lie but almost everyone I know my age or younger struggle with math because it's easier to fire up the calculator than do it in their head. Just one of those things where technology has outpaced rules and regulations. I suspect when some of these features become table stakes across the board we'll see a shift in requirements.

That’s pretty dumb. What will they do in 10 years when every entry level vehicle has more advanced driver assist features?

I guess you are the guy who forgot to write because now we use keyboards everywhere…

The Tesla didn't have FSD, so AZDOT switched to saying she didn't use the brake pedal enough....

Retaining skills previously developed in an early technology is different to newcomers never developing the skills.

I made a similar observation. More than likely like everything else, they will have to adapt the road tests to accommodate what are standard features. Pretty sure almost every car sold in the last 4-5 years offers some basic driver assist no?

This is among the stupidest thing I've ever heard. And I've been on the Internet for over three and a half decades. They think because she passed the exam in a Tesla, she may not be able to drive another car? Because the Tesla is too safe? 99% of people take the exam in an automatic transmission vehicle and there are no restrictions for driving a manual transmission vehicle with the license that they get. How many do you think can drive a manual?

Feature Request: Tesla should have a mode for 'Driving License Test', which can be turned on to make DMV happy.

Can't get a license when using regenerative braking, yet you can get certified with an automatic transmission. How do we know you can operate a clutch? Ridiculous.

We swapped both our cars for teslas at the same time several years ago. Then maybe one year ago I had to drive a rental. I think the worst was that I kept turning the windshield wipers on because I’m used to flipping gears with the right stalk. Mostly, though, it was just annoying carrying keys, remembering to park, and breaking.

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Instant lawsuit if it happened to me.

Hold on. So many new-ish cars don’t have manual handbrakes, our 2017 Skoda does not for example. Do they expect that you drive up in a ten year old car? Too powerful might have to do with the annoying power-to-weight rules some Australian states have which pretty much exclude half of EVs.

Shouldn't really matter. If a car is street legal, it should be driving test legal.

They do. But they want to test that YOU know how to drive, not that the car knows how to drive for you. All of these road test will probably migrate to SIMs anyway in the future.

Obviously you can’t just turn on FSD for a driving test, a big part of current FSD is it has to be supervised by a competent driver.

Well imagine 20 years when most of the cars are all FSD, I think it is fair to say if you don't know how to safely and correctly drive car manually, you won't qualify for a license. You will just need to continue to use robo taxies or be required to sit in the non-drivers seat of all cars with FSD. I mean the license is to certify you can safely drive a car manually. If you cant, you cant.

Sure, you couldn't turn on cruise control in a regular car either for a driving test.

Their goal (the new driver licensing portion) is to make sure you know how to operate a vehicle before giving you a license. There's an argument to be made that if the car does 90% of the test automatically, and those features aren't standard in most cars, then you haven't really proven you can drive a car, just that you can sit in a fully loaded Tesla. In this example they're flat out wrong (that car didn't even have FSD, and regen breaking is standard enough where you might just have to let the brake thing slide). But on one hand, you want to balance having a comprehensive test but also allowing the driver to use their own car (since that *is* what they trained on and will be using)

There is a manual parking brake you can engage by holding in the Park button at the end of the shifter stalk. Wonder if that would have satisfied that requirement… 🤔

Trouble with sims is that you want to test new drivers in a car they're familiar with and the car they'll probably be operating.

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It is a very bad analogy but I will throw this out - a pilot must be able to go between stick, VFR and IFR, autopilots etc. If autopilot and auto land ever fail, they must have the skill to stick fly. Obviously the DMV logic is not this precise, but they have a point. If FSD gets disabled due to a failure, will that student have the skills to takeover safely?

I can KIND of understand the parking brake thing, because its an instructor safety thing, empathetically they have to drive many times a day with brand new very inexperienced drivers. It's a bit of a crazy job. But, as you say, the problem is so many cars these days don't have it. Many of them have a safety feature where if you hold it up it will still try to slow down similar to actually pulling one but I am not sure how consistent that is between mdoels, if it's ADR regulated, etc. Last I heard it seemed they had caved on this requirement in the last couple of years where I am (Perth, Western Australia) as it's getting harder and harder to get cars without it. But now it's the same story over again with each new feature commonly found in cars.

Good idea. Suggest that to Tesla. Maybe get a small reward.

This is BS. I lost my 2001 Acura TL in May after I tried to swerve out of the way of a metal pipe on the toll toad (it rolled over 7 times). If I had a Model Y then (which I do now), I probably would not have had to spend 3 months in a neck brace (I T3 Fractured my C2 Dens).

In BC they make you turn off any dashcam for the road test. Wonder how they handle Teslas.

This is not uncommon even here in California. Set the Tesla to roll so they have to hit the brake. Turn off FSD in the settings. Usually that’s enough to pass. Here they count how many times you hit the brakes.

I can kind of see it too but on the other hand - drivers are trained for driving the real world and there’s no point teaching new drivers something that for the most part no longer exists, or at least won’t in the near future. Ours will apparently emergency brake if you pull up on the electronic handbrake during driving. Have never tried it and I don’t really want to either.

Softies dont wanna hear your nonsense here!! Lol

PennDOT would fail drivers for using stick shift and shifting to neutral and using the brake to come to a stop. They wanted you to downshift through all the gears one by one and use the brake to come to a stop. They would fail you for “failure to control the vehicle” by only using the brake pedal. So the opposite of what they failed the Tesla for. It was well known amongst high school kids to take the test in an automatic vehicle to avoid the issue. Edit: Yes it's not 100% correct but once you get below 30mph or so it's much easier to just shift to the center and brake the last 10-15 yards/meters to the stop sign istead of going from 3rd, to 2nd, to 1st and then neutral. Some are saying that would fail you in Europe. Obviously going from 45mph or even 60mph and just shifting to neutral and riding the brake would fail you. Not sure where the line is drawn for when you can go to neutral and just brake but if you used an automatic for the test you didn't have to worry about that.

Stunt drivers are having a hard time finding cars because nothing has a handbrake or is rear wheel drive anymore. They're either rigging custom cars or driving old ones still.

Makes sense though. What if their car is b0rked and up for repair and they get a non tesla

You bring your own car for a driving test in US and Australia?

This is like failing someone for taking a driving test in a car with an automatic transmission because they might not know how to drive a car with a manual transmission. And it’s true, most people take tests in automatic cars and don’t know how to drive a manual. Technology changes!

I would honestly like to see them have training on responsible use of ADAS. Make them drive using ADAS features for a few miles, make sure they don’t venture into getting distracted by screens. Maybe have them do a test emergency stop, since people often don’t have their foot on the pedal when using TACC. But I also see value in some portion of the road test require you disable the features. Being able to control a car when a wheel speed sensor fails is useful too.

That would make you fail in Spain as well I think. And although nowadays there is more offer of automatic cars, the vast majority of cars have always been with manual shifting. The whole point is to have redundancy while breaking. I only saw one person doing the neutral thing in my life and honestly was really uncomfortable. She thought she was saving gas because the engine would run at lower RPMs. I explained to her how that was wrong and dangerous and she didn't know half of it.

Easy enough to turn it off.

Really?

Anyone not trained in how to effectively use ADAS is a less safe driver. No idea why these ass-clowns at the DMV are trying to maintain less safe practices.

Have a different license for cars that have advanced driver assist features. No different than getting a license for an automatic car

Oh God. I do NOT want to live in a world where people have driving licenses who don't know how to drive without driver assistance.

Why?

Or on vacation in a rental car

The car in question didn't even have FSD. The instructor was an anti EV nutjob

The problem is that, in the US, driving a manual is at least as different from driving an automatic as driving an automatic is from driving a Tesla, yet you can pass a driving test in an automatic and receive an unrestricted license that allows you to drive manual transmissions legally. The whole thing makes no sense.

I live in the U.S. AFAIK there’s no distinction between a driver’s license for a manual transmission car vs. an automatic. Where are you from? They have such a distinction?

Only some states in the US

Older Model 3 and Model Y have the emergency brake available as a button on the end of the right-hand stalk (gear shift). Catch is that in RHD countries this puts the emergency brake on the opposite side of the student driver from the instructor. The more common thing to do for professional instructors is add dual controls so that the instructor has access to a brake pedal. IMHO what will likely happen in the future is license exams requiring candidates to turn up in instructor-modified vehicles.

The car didn't even have full self driving...the instructor was an anti EV nut job. When he was called out in his b.s. he backtracked abd failed them fir having regenerative braking....which all hybrids and EV's have and is nit a reason to fail.

The car didn't even have FSD

The car didn't even have FSD in the first place. The guy was an anti EV nutjob and then said they failed because the car has regenerative braking.

They'd drive it.....

They turn it off. You can also pull the drive out and the dashcam won't record.

It's funny in the US because many states are pretty lax about driver testing. I took it in a state where they even required you to take a course and then pay for multiple classes with an instructor, and even then the instructor fell asleep for half my test.

Yep, same in at least several EU countries.

Exactly. People are not required to pass the road test with a manual transmission vehicle. This does not preclude these people from driving a manual transmission car. AZOD’s argument does not stand if argued in the court.

Good. FSD may one day make the nut job’s position obsolete. He deserves it.

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I haven't even seen an ICE car with an actual hand brake like that in years. Seems like most automatics just have a parking break pedal.

Here in Ireland if you have a manual driver license you can drive manual and automatic, where as if you have an automatic license you can only drive automatic. I had honestly thought this was standard in most countries

Here in Germany, driving schools have their own special cars with specific equipment that you do your lessons and test on. They have pedals for both you and the instructor so they can stop you in an emergency. You’re not allowed to operate your own car until you have completely finished your license. And during the test, the instructor and the test official will make sure that you’re only using minimal assistance systems. This solves any dispute about what kind of car you’re allowed to operate.

You can turn them off, or?

We do, all over the EU.

In Europe you don't use your own car, when taking the final driving test nor during the driving classes with the instructor.

Yes , most people learn to drive on their parents cars and that what you do the test in.

In Brazil, you dont take the test with your car. Its a car provided by the driving school(which is mandatory) and its manual(never heard of an auto anyways). One of the reason(I believe) is that you should be able to drive any car, not just your own or the one you are used to, so they just throw you in one and you gotta prove you know your shit

Why tho?

Very different from some countries in Europe. Here, you must go to do an exam for the rules. Then you must do a minimum of... 8? Hours of training in an official driving school. And you do the driving exam with the school's car. So you'd never get this issues.

So, an incompetent examinator. They initially failed the kid because they used FSD during the test. Parents provider proof the car doesn't have FSD. The then they started to make up reasons to double down instead of admitting their mistake.

Yes, a 'manual' license or a cut down 'automatic only' license. The manual is by far the most common test to take.

“Too many safety features….”

Less accidents.

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They pull the hand brake as an emergency stop. If they’re going to drive into something or are driving like a lunatic.

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Eh. There are barely any manual cars in the states anymore. If you want a manual, you pretty much have to hunt for one. It’s a non issue really.

Why? When automatic transmissions came out, did you have to take the test with automatics? Nope....you took the test in whatever car you had. Why is it different for EVs?

We don't bother, but us older guys pretend it does. Stick shifts were fun in their day. So were Stanley Steamers, I'm sure.

Which is how this car is intended to be driven.

I let my friend drive my Model 3 during his test back in 2022, and had to explain how regenerative braking works to the instructor. She told him to just pretend that he’s using the brake petal by hovering his foot over it while braking. He passed the test.

They do have these for comercial drivers licenses in the U.S, but obviously driving an 80,000lb vehicle is a lot different. If you take your CDL drivers test in an automatic truck, you get a restriction on your license.

Only about 2% or less of the cars in the U.S are manual.

3 months of FSD to be specifically used during driving tests.

The vast majority of cars in Ireland are manual. Extremely rare to see automatic cars

Problem is, that the DMV can't know about every feature of concern in every car in the wild, so it's easier to just exclude certain vehicles because they _could_ have active driving assistance equipped. In the end the goal of a driving test is having the student proving their skills in an "average" car. And the Tesla is way above the average with its incredible features. On the other hand in my country I see lots of driving schools with Teslas, so it would be possible if there was a will...

Coasting while slowing and coming to a stop (not downshifting through the gears) should be a fail in any decent testing scenario. It’s showing you can maintain control of the vehicle properly.

New teslas cannot be set to roll.

Next time just show up on a regular car to take the test

Sounds like one or two rogue employees who have a beef with Tesla. That said, my S has FSD but the one I got for my daughter doesn't, so she'll be using that one lol.

When I first saw the title I thought it was a joke. That's nuts.

It's more efficient that way. An underpowered engine is always going to have trouble moving a couple of tons (or tonnes if you prefer) of vehicle. That's one of the beauties of electric motors. Torque is available throughout the rev band and that band is very wide.

Oh sweet summer child. Just because you’ve driven 50 hours (is what is required here although didn’t used to be) doesn’t mean you’re remotely ready or skilled. Or even if you are, you’re new and it’s easy to make a mistake still: https://youtu.be/9xSjudJYXpE https://youtu.be/Q0telqZnu_8

It's almost as if they didn't read the article...

By that logic, anyone who takes the test in a non-Tesla should automatically fail — after all, what if they get a Tesla when their car is getting repaired? Cars really are getting harder to drive because of all the different features and how they're implemented. Like just this week, the rental car I was in had didn't move forward when the foot was off the brake. It was confusing to figure out what was going on because the A-in-a-circle logo responsible (auto-hold) looked very similar to the auto-stop feature gas cars also have. Note none of these features were on cars in the 90's (when I got my license) and none of them are needed on EV's (which I own) so every time I get into a rental car, there's some new button or way to change gears, etc. Not a complaint, just saying cars are way more different from each other now than before. Anyway, we can either force students to learn on every type of car (and maybe re-certify every 10 years) or we can just make sure they know the basics: rules of the road, steering, accelerating/braking, etc. If we let students drive manual transmissions without testing on a manual, we can certainly let a Tesla driver drive a dumb car that requires two pedals to drive normally.

The driving instructor needs to re-qualify for her own license. Lifting the right foot \*is\* braking in an EV.

I'd rather ride in a Model Y than a 10 year old Corolla in terms of crash safety.

I mean, downshifting provides some minor redundancy. But in an automatic you don't have this redundancy. So why make it part of pass/fail for manual? It doesn't seem logical.

Ok, I don't know enough of the mechanics of automatic cars, that should go first. My guess is that the car's driving computer is smart enough to know when to engage/disengage the clutch. Which does not mean that it disengages the clutch and leaves the car only on breaks when not accelerating. I guess the inertia disk is doing its job there as well. Also, yes, the redundancy is minimal if you just downshift to avoid stalling, but one can also proactively downshift to get more retention from the engine. Of course this can damage the clutch long term. Techniques like toe-hill can help with that. By having the clutch always engaged, you can also rezct by accelerating to any unexpected issue you may encounter, minimizing reaction times. So why fail the exam? Because disengaging the clutch (and even set the gears to neutral) is 2 times less safe than downshifting correctly: no redundancy and increased reaction time. As someone else has said, in European countries, if you do the exam with an automatic car, you get the license for automatic cars and are not allowed to drive stick. It should be clear now why.

I would not count on that last part. Given the scattershot of rental cars I've had you might see cars that barely even have simple cruise control (so no traffic aware features even).

Activist midlevel control freak imbeciles

8 hours? Not sure which european country you live in but the average in NL is like 35

Full self-driving is marketed as a fully self-driving feature It is not presented as a driving assistant They use the word "full" which is a very naive go to market strategy and can limit insurance outcomes as well

Most Americans in their lifetime will never once drive a manual.

Classic automatics don’t really have clutches they have a rotating disc of oil as far as I understand it. Now something like a vw dsg has a clutch pack that engages and has that same manual type directly connected feel

In my state the parking brake can be electronic as long as it's in the center and readily accessible to the examiner.

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Sounds like a clickbait title. The examiner failed the student because they thought FSD was activated during the test, not just because they thought the car was equipped with it.

No they shouldn’t. Some DMVs just have power tripping psychopaths who do the exams. Our local DMV in Amarillo TX is so famous for it, kids here almost always go to other towns. I kinda felt it was a bs rumor until it happened to my daughter. Everyone they fail has to come right back the next day and do it again. Imagine being such a miserable bastard that you are willing to double or triple your task work just to inconvenience your clients and coworkers. What a hellhole.

Technically speaking, when it's capable of driving you 95% of the time without having to even touch the steering wheel, it's not that big of a stretch. But having it limit insurance options is baffling to me considering that it's arguably more attentive that the average driver or driving assistant.

I have a Tesla and use the brake pedal *maybe* once a week. If you are a good driver who anticipates having to stop, you don't need to use the brake. Using the brake in a Tesla is an indication that you wait too late to stop.

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PA resident here. Without displaying use of the vehicles functionality (brake pedal) they can’t ensure she properly knows how/when to use it in a non-regen braking scenario. I see no problem in the refusal. BTW: I still have ever kid I teach how to drive check their mirrors and make sure they examiner sees them visibly move their head to check things.

Which wasn't at all what happened here.

I agree with both of the things you said, my point is in the far future it is likely that a lot of people will no longer have drivers licenses because no one will be manually driving cars. If you cannot safely manually drive a car then you should not get a license but that will be ok because it will be the norm. It will be normal that people no longer are able to manually drive a car.

Interesting. My kid is only 14, but they are going to be learning to drive and taking the test in our Model Y. The other family vehicle is my husbands huge old dirty work truck. So that’s a no. lol

Have you ever been outside the US? What you say is not true at all

Same happened to me actually. The old lady said I: never used turn signal (she didn’t know it was on the screen), never used brakes (I had regenerative braking), and then to top it all off when she tried exiting the car I had to explain the button on the door and she said everything about the car was, quote, “the most inconvenient thing ever”. I just took the test again the next day with a different person and explained where everything is and passed 100%

Wait, you guys use your own cars to get your driving licenses? The schools here provide their own cars to the students

Wow, I didn’t realize how behind Ireland was. Most industrialized countries now have more automatic than manual transmission cars. Especially since EVs are only automatic.

Would adaptive cruise control also do this same thing?

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Im Spain minimum mandatory is 8h. Most people need between 25 and 30h. Some people have farms so they drive there and only do the 8h mandatory ones.

All right thanks for the info. So I guess the question is: do does systems disengage the engine from the wheels while pressing the break pedal? I highly doubt it but any info is appreciated.

Yea at that point a lot of people won't need them, but if they need a test vehicle just use an older one, or one where all that has been disabled.

Extremely rare? Automatic have a 65% market share on new cars in Ireland. https://stats.beepbeep.ie/ Sure I would guess it still some years off from them having a overall higher market share (both old and new), but I can't imagine that they are "extremely rare".

> And while it is true that about 55% of cars sold in Ireland are manual transmission, For 2024 the numbers are 35%. They were 36% in 2023. https://stats.beepbeep.ie/

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"in the states"

This is the exact reason why we have different classes of vehicles on our licenses. You know, motorcycle, commercial vehicle, etc. > a big part of current FSD is it has to be supervised by a competent driver. Well, that rules most existing owners out.

> an incompetent examinator I would say, considering that you've created a new word that is the portmanteau between "examiner" and "terminator", that they were an excellent "examinator".

That student will be back.

I think they don't want a record of the route taken.

Just had an issue this week with something similar at CA DMV location in SoCal. They tested one of my kids 3 years ago in the same model 3 and no problem. This time not only did they make us turn off “lane assist” (I believe it’s actually lane departure warning) and forward collision warning, which are safety features, they made our kid turn Creep mode on. Why, I do not know, as creep mode didn’t even exist in Tesla’s when originally sold and is essentially reproduction of a side-effect of automatic transmission vehicles. Manuals have no creep, what do you do in them? I also think it’s rude to make the student change the fundamental driving dynamic of the vehicle right then and there. These DMVs and DOTs need to set published standards for different kinds of vehicles so that we know before the exam what will be required. It’s unfair to leave these in the hands of inducing examiners.

Yeah, two years ago when my daughter was taking the test in California I disabled as much as I could and turned regen breaking to low so there wouldn’t be problems like this. Also so she knew how to drive cars that weren’t ours.

The easy solution would probably be to just take a page from the European playbook: no one is using their private car for the test but an "official" instructor car.

My daughter went through the same thing, and we had to go get her mom’s dumb car for the driving test.

My Tesla. That I bought in April. Is set to roll in my son’s profile. EDIT: oh shiz as of Jan 2024 mfg date? Whelp.

There was a post yesterday that said 73% of Reddit users don’t read the article they are commenting on.

Most people don't drive new cars, especially given the cost of living crisis in Ireland right now. And I don't live in a city so less electric vehicles. It's also worth noting that most people learn to drive on their parents cars, so they learn manual and would want to buy a manual car.

In the United States we have those cars for instruction. The testers just ride in the face of danger every day though.

Why aren't the tests done on standardized vehicles? Bringing your own car seems like a stupid way to do things... You seriously gonna let that kid take the test in a McLaren P1?

Job security. The more sophisticated the tech is and the safer everything becomes, their livelihood is threatened. I could see their argument being "but what if you had to drive an older car?" Seeing that the standard shift, arm signaling out the window and double clutching became obsolete in their lifetime...

Sure, but I wouldn't think that would be extremely rare to see automatic cars in Ireland still. For example there is almost an even split on the cars for sale on carsireland website.

For which they would have to know how to

They do know how. Their car didn't even have full self driving equipped, the instructor was just a moron.

She wasn't denied because the car has FSD but because the examiner thought she was *using* FSD. They then found another reason to turn her down. Kinda sounds like they didn't want to admit they were wrong.

Automatics have a torque converter sitting inbetween the engine & transmission instead of a clutch. There are a lot of parts in one but the main two are effectively a “pump” and a “turbine” encased really close together submerged in transmission fluid. The engine is connected to the “pump” side and spins it to add kinetic energy to the fluid. The transmission is connected to the “turbine” side, which gets spun by the fluid. There being no mechanical connection between the “pump” and “turbine” side (except at higher speeds most modern ones will mechanically lock together) is what gives the *slip* that a clutch would to allow the transmission to change gears. This is cool because unlike a person pressing down the clutch, there is never a full disconnect of power between the engine and transmission. The pump is always spinning and applying at least a bit of power to the turbine, even if the turbine isn’t spinning. This is why you need to press the brakes a bit harder at a stop if you’re in drive instead of neutral to stop the car from rolling forward. It’s almost like your car is constantly “riding the clutch” for you, but without the downside of ripping the clutch to shreds. So while coming to a stop in an automatic, power is never disconnected between the engine and transmission. Whether or not the transmission is actually downshifting to help you slow down is different from car to car. Most modern cars have programming to have the transmission help slow you down. I used to own a 2013 Ford Fusion that would even detect when you’re going down a steep hill and would really aggressively downshift when braking to save your brakes. I also currently own a 1979 Mercedes with such an ancient transmission that it will only shift all the way back down to first gear once you are completely stopped.

That doesn't seem right. I'll be training my daughter to drive my 5-speed Insight, but that shouldn't matter for DMV testing. If they want a specific vehicle for testing then they should supply it.

It's not just Reddit... Anywhere that allows commenting suffers from this. Heck, I'll admit, IRL, I'll bring up in conversation 'what did you think of 'some interesting headline'?' even if I hadn't read it, but I make sure to always then include 'Asking, as I saw the headline and was interested, but didn't actually read the article'.

I also got my license in AZ. When I took my test ~15 years ago, I used my grandpa's Cadillac. When you put it in reverse the side mirrors automatically tilt down. Instructor didn't like that. It also had parking sensors to tell you if you were getting close to something. Instructor didn't like that, either. I didn't even need the sensors or the tilted mirrors because I'd extensively practiced parallel parking that yacht and had gotten very good at it. Then, they said I was doing 35 in a 25. I was doing 25. It had a digital readout and everything. Next to impossible to misread it. Ended up having to retake the test in a cheaper car.

> Especially since EVs are only automatic. EVs don't need to have more than 1 gear, you mean.

That's completely silly. I can understand expecting to retain engine braking and only shifting to neutral at the end (burns your brakes less too), but absolutely no manual driver runs through the entire gearbox to come to a stop.

I see a lot of problems in the refusal and > they can’t ensure she properly knows how/when to use it in a non-regen braking scenario I think that's stupid. The vehicle has two sets of brakes, the test should be examining speed control and stopping distance, not the mechanism by which it is achieved.

Hand brake? Really? Lots of cars don't have a manual one. Does the push button one even count? My dad's car has a hand brake you operate with your foot. Haha does that count or do I have to reach under and operate it with my hand.

You should occasionally use the brakes to ensure the brake discs don't rust over and remain effective if you need in an emergency.

I live in WV. One of my neighbors is the manager of all the DMV offices in like 5 counties. She came over the other day and asked me to do a deep dive in operation of my car. People are failing because they don’t know how to activate the emergency brake. Fun fact: if you hold the park button on the stalk, the car DOES SLAM DOWN THE EMERGENCY BRAKE. I showed her doing about 10mph.

There's an argument to be made that drivers should have to pass the test in a manual car. Like, if there is an emergency situation where a stick shift car with keys in the ignition is blocking an exit- everyone should at least be able to put it into first gear and move it out of the way. Just have DMV cars and make people use them. Don't overthink it. As for Teslas and other electric cars- just being able to operate them takes more awareness than driving an ICE. Nobody should be failing driving tests. If you can't drive- god help you- don't try.

Yes, “automatic”. I’ll make sure to add the quotes next time to avoid the pedantry

I'm calling bullshit on this story as it is a reddit post citing a site which cites a reddit post with no actual follow up.

To as dd a little more info to this, I had a 2001 Solara with a 3L V6 and now a 2017 Sonata Hybrid with a 2L, both are automatic. On the Solara when I down shifted there was a good amount of engine braking and it could slow the car down quite a bit from higher speeds. On my Sonata, there is very little engine braking and it does almost nothing.

Actually if I understand the article correctly Arizona did the right thing. They thought FSD was being used which effectively means the driver isn't being tested. When they found out that the car didn't even have FSD they changed their position. Frankly it sounds like a responsive government agency that many other states could take examples from. Now the obvious thing here is that the testing protocol needs to be changed to verify that any and all self driving / safety features are turned off. Even 20 years into the future I can't see a rational reason to give anybody a license if they don't have a base capability to drive without automation. We still expect airplane pilot to be able to pilot a plane even with the advent of advanced autopilots.

You can put the vehicle into break service mode which turns off regen breaking. It’s meant to burnish new break pads but it will make the car drive like a normal car. Can also buy s3xy commander module/buttons to turn off regen breaking

I’d guess it’s a checklist problem. They want to see people actively using mirrors, brakes, and proceeding with caution. The assessors need better training. If the driver is using brake regen and the car is slowing appropriately for conditions then they are using the brakes.

Going into neutral and braking should indeed be a fail. You’re supposed to brake, and only clutch when the revs get to low. Normally no need per se to go through all the gears though.

Downshifting through all the gears in a manual car is expected on the driving test in Ireland, where the majority of cars are manual. You’ll fail if you drop it into neutral and come to a stop using only the break pedal.

why is the test not checking for proper speed control, braking with the proper distance and actual driving habits.

lmfao. ah yes there will just be a manual car on the road for some reason.

why is that relevant to someone with an AMERICAN drivers license?

I just want to know how the bus driver can scrap the transmission on Truman Show.

the car didn’t have FSD

we have those cars in the US too. Apparently some counties just don’t use them.

this car didn’t have FSD. The person when called on their bullshit changed their stance to regen braking. Every hybrid and EV has regen by definition of what makes them a hybrid.

It's not that you're expected to do that on your daily driving. It's a matter of showing, during the exam, that you have the knowledge and skill to do it well and at the right time. Imagine you can't do it and you encounter a long, steep descent in which you default to "engage neutral, brake as needed" instead of (knowing how/when you're supposed to be) downshifting to 5th or 4th. I was definitely evaluated on that and I'm happy to see that they still do it here and elsewhere.

Yeah, I so. When I'm on a road all by myself I'll slam on the brakes from speed.

There’s always the Damsel in distress situation as well!

This article is based on a Reddit post from two months ago. Why is this advertising spam being rewarded like this? Can I start a crappy "news" site, then repost old Reddit posts to TeslaLounge too? Maybe OP isn't affiliated with the site, but the post should still be deleted.

In Queensland, Australia it's 100 hours

Yup. That’s a fail in Ontario as well. Just learn to downshift if you really want to be driving a manual car.

It's not a redundancy of deceleration, it's so that you can immediately apply throttle and accelerate if needed. If you popped an automatic transmission into neutral when braking you'd fail as well.

> It's not that you're expected to do that on your daily driving. You are expected to do it in normal driving - you downshift in conjunction with slowing down, but you don't have to hit every gear individually. The whole point of doing it is so you can immediately accelerate if needed, rather than having the car in neutral and having to reengage a gear to accelerate.

Bing. Going to neutral you've disengaged the drivetrain and converted the vehicle to a ballistic wagon.

It has nothing to do with aiding in deceleration, it is so you have the ability to immediately accelerate if you need to. But yes, manual drivers (ones that aren't crappy drivers) downshift in conjunction with decelerating every single time they stop. You don't have to hit every gear individually - I'll go 6th to 3rd to 2nd and then come to a stop.

Which is how it should be. Coasting in neutral is bad driving behavior as you do not have the ability to immediately accelerate.

This is a silly take. "Converted the vehicle to a ballistic wagon"?? It's not flying in a gravity arc, it's coasting. You know, like a bicycle. The only control advantage to remaining in gear is the ability to \_speed up\_ which is usually a more dangerous option than \_slowing down\_. If you need to speed up, it is not difficult or particularly time consuming to re-engage the drivetrain at an appropriate gear. Steering and braking are much more important controls than accelerating.

An automatic doesn’t disengage when you brake. Also it does shift when the rpms get too low. So your statement does not really make sense. Also when you get a license in an automatic, you should only be allowed to drive an automatic. That’s how it is in Europe. But getting a license in the US is anyway quite a joke.

Teach your kid to drive the work truck. Seriously.

Yes. As I was replying in context, I was replying to that specifically. "You're not expected to do *that* on your daily driving."

Yeah. In Ireland where I live if you pass your test in an automatic your licence is only good for an automatic. And manuals are super common here.

The manual for my new Model S claims the car does this automatically. Although it also gives the same advice so it's inconsistent...

According to my new Model S manual, the park button on the screen also does this. Although the manual claims it comes to a "gentle stop" so IDK. I'm not about to try it...

That's insane. Do they have a neuralizer (MiB flashy thing) too?

Exactly, and automatic transmissions coast as well.

But that's now how you drive a stick. So I get why they would fail.

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Pretend to hit the brake? Hopefully they start recognizing it’s okay. It’s almost like failing someone in an automatic instead of manual when they first came out.

> didn't use the brake pedal enough Inspector isn't entirely wrong. Over-reliance on 1PD is going to make drivers lose the muscle memory to mash the real brake in a panic stop. Like the Marines say, "in an emergency, people don't rise to the occasion, they sink to the level of their training. That's why we train so hard."

You don't need to accelerate when you're coming to a stop due to traffic lights etc. Coasting works fine then.

You don't *need* to, right up until you *do* need to - at which point you no longer have the vehicle in gear and are not ready to react. I have multiple times had to rapidly transition from braking to accelerating, and if I'd taken the carelessly lazy approach to driving you seem to be encouraging, it would have ended poorly. So your view of "all I'm doing is slowing down" shows a profound failure to grasp the bigger picture of driving and the multitude of things that can go wrong at any moment, for which a good driver is constantly evaluating and prepared to respond to.

The only conceivable explanation why I'd want to speed up in an ICE when I'm approaching traffic lights is if a car behind me is going to ram me, and even then, the acceleration on my old Celica was negligible so it would barely make any difference.

I think a valid argument can actually be made that someone who learned in an EV may have problems with non-automated cars. In some European countries, if you take your test in a car with automatic transmission, your license is only good for automatics. Manual transmissions are still very common in Europe.

Just tell them it’s not an option. I can’t see how it would be a problem. There’s nothing wrong with taking your drive test in a Bugatti - I think they are just hating on Tesla (Elon) by blaming it on assistive driving feature. Best wishes on your drive test!!

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Just being able to operate them takes more awareness? False. Especially if you consider fsd. My car drives me everywhere, with little to no intervention. It will come to all vehicles eventually. Being a licensed driver will be an exception, and a rare one.

Wow, that's a great point you made. Do you have any suggestions on how to get rid of condescension?

Awareness was the wrong word used there. I meant awareness on how the world works.

At this point I'm ready to drop the arguably. Fsd is absolutely safer than I am when driving. And I haven't gotten into an accident in 20 years ish... And that one I was rear ended.

Just because you do something wrong a lot, doesn’t make it right. And it being more simple doesn’t make it right either. There are many good reasons to keep the car in gear. One is the balance of the car. Another is that it uses zero fuel when coasting (but that doesn’t apply to older cars without fuel injection).

You don’t have to go through each gear one by one, but you do need to keep it engaged for as much as possible. It’s fine to go from 3>1 for example if your car can handle the RPM’s without starting to stall. But the clutch should only be disengaged for a second while you change gear.

The test isn’t about whether you can just drive your current car though. They need to know you’d be safe behind the wheel of any car - they don’t ask you to take a new test when you buy a new car. If the only car they had ever driven in is a Tesla with regen braking, and they had to drive a different vehicle without regen braking, there is no proof they’d be able to drive a traditional vehicle. In the UK if you take your drivers test in an Automatic, you are only licensed to drive Automatics. If you take your test in a Manual, you get to drive both. Similarly to the first example, if the only car you had ever driven was an automatic, they have no proof you’d be safe behind the wheel of a manual. The mechanism absolutely does matter.

Yes. This is the reason. And if you have it in a low gear at high RPM you have the best chance of avoiding a collision. And if this has never almost happened to you, you're wrong and you need to watch your mirrors better.

Most americans drive manual, don't conflate USA-specific statistics.

I would hope it’s obvious when someone says “Americans” they mean the United States and not the greater North American continent. In the US the only people driving manual are car enthusiasts or elderly people still driving the same car they got in high school.

Well, "Americans" include all the peoples in the continent, not just NA or USA specifically. You don't hear chinese talking about asians when self-referencing? This is also a problem in countries like Botswana or Togo: few know them, only their continent as a whole instead.

Come on man, context clues. If I was talking about people in Canada I’d say Canadians, if I was talking about people in Mexico I’d say Mexicans, Americans is pretty much universally known to mean people in the United States. You’re being dense for the sake of being dense.

I live in the US and I agree. If you fail your driver's test here you probably shouldn't be driving at all. I'm only sort of joking 😆.

Interesting. In my country, if you take the test with an automatic you get your license with a small code on it. This basically means you have the license for automatic, but not for stick shift cars. You can "upgrade" the license later by just taking the test again in a stick shift (without redoing any of the other mandatory courses). Electric cars are treated as normal automatics, and it's never been an issue (and I think we recently crossed 50% electric cars on the road).

To be fair, according to Google, in 2015 107k manual vehicles were registered in Ireland and only 19k automatic. That's less than 7% of registered vehicles and that's not *that* long ago. So I'd assume almost all of those vehicles are still on the road. "Extremely rare" may be a *slight* exaggeration but not as much as you might assume.

> And if this has never almost happened to you, you're wrong and you need to watch your mirrors better. Hmm, maybe I should be on the look out more. Unless Tesla has that safety feature built in.

I don't believe Tesla does. Regardless, the existence of a safety feature is not a reason to stop driving defensively.

There are many more conceivable reasons than what you've come up with, and in fact just last week I had to do it - I was driving in the left lane and a car was turning out of the parking lot on the right into, what I thought was going to be, the right lane. Except just as I'm about to be passing the car, they decide they actually want to be in the left lane and started coming over like I didn't exist. Because I was paying attention and prepared to respond I was able to get off the brakes and jab the accelerator and skirt past the car without an incident. Had I not been able to react that quickly, there would have been a collision. And no, braking wouldn't have worked because I was traveling ~40mph and she was going about ~11mph. And no, swerving wouldn't have worked because there was a concrete curb to my left. Please understand that being in control of your car at all times is important, and dropping into neutral is a very bad habit. And like many bad habits, they don't immediately have a negative ramification, which is why they can develop.

You lost me. So you do downshift while slowing down or you don't? Because you absolutely should, every time.

Fair enough. Glad it's not even an issue in a Tesla anyway.

Here's the context from the comment I replied to: >That's completely silly (...) absolutely no manual driver runs through the entire gearbox to come to a stop. It makes no sense to downshift through the whole gearbox everytime you slow down but it still makes sense that you have to prove in the driving test that you are able to do it. I absolutely downshift.

I am really struggling to come to terms with what you're saying. I downshift every time I am coming to a stop. I usually skip some gears as there's no reason to go 6->5->4->3->2->1->stopped when decelerating, but I'll do 6->3->2->stopped, or something like that. And that is what everyone should be doing every time they are decelerating, and is what will pass the driving test. You don't have to hit every gear individually in normal driving nor in a driving test, just have to have the vehicle in a gear that can accelerate.