Tesla Updates FSD Package, Can Now Only Buy FSD Supervised

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Suggesting one shouldn’t ever expect Level 3+ autonomy from any Tesla you can order today, I suppose?

… I hope that means I’m actually grandfathered into something other than depreciation

Preach

I would be shocked if it gets above level 2 with the current hardware.

Which is probably why they changed the wording. Since the old wording, without "supervised", certainly seemed to suggest that it eventually would. Which might have opened them up to lawsuits

Could you make the argument that you purchased the car with it being advertised as having FSD unsupervised capabilities even if you didn't purchase the package? It was promised hardware.

I dunno, I really really really want to participate in a class-action over this. I don't care what the website or the contract says...the CEO continually and repeatedly promised the car I bought in 2021 would turn into a driverless robtaxi and make money for me while I'm not using it. And not in a "wouldn't it be cool if" or "we hope to be able to offer it one day" kind of way, but in a "this is real, buy now before the value of the cars skyrockets, I'd be SHOCKED if it didn't happen last year, here's a video we made" kind of way. I think there's a very good legal case to be made that if the fine print says one thing and the repeated public statements of the CEO says something else, customers may have been duped into making purchases they otherwise would not have.

You don’t need conspiracy theories to see what that means or where it comes from. The dream of FSD on existing cars reaching robotaxi levels is long dead, it was postponed from predictions way too many times over the last decade.

That's it. Game over. Fsd will never improve.

legally? I doubt it. Because I think the binding agreement is IN the option. “If you buy FSD, well guarantee your car can run the final product”. They aren’t under any obligation necessarily to make all options available at sale, available now

When I bought my model 3, the salesperson literally said that to me. I wish I had recorded the conversation now.

I suspect the fine print says otherwise when actually purchasing FSD to cover their ass

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As I said in my post, when the CEO of the company publicly and repeatedly say something other than what the fine print says, there's a pretty compelling case to be made that the company misled buyers.

And not just FSD. EAP was the same and it has not delivered either. “On-ramp to off-ramp FSD”

I’d want more than that. Wife and I were driving through heavy fog, and she said “it can see through this better than us, right…?”. Haha. Any other modern car, sure, but afraid not ours.

Skimming through my order agreement from February 2020 and there’s no mention of it or anywhere to bout any fine print, so there’s nothing I signed with any hidden fine print anywhere

I totally feel this. I feel like FSD is the timeshare of EV’s at this point. If the sales pitch was legit like it is “Hey! Would you like to crap your pants because your car random ass brakes from 85-30 for no reason? How about it drives 4 miles an hour to a stop sign, stops, creeps forward at .25 mph then floors it in your neighborhood?!” I would have said no. And saved a TON of money.

Imagine how those of us that bought FSD in 2017 feel about this. We were given the same false assurances by the salespeople and the CEO. They were repeated year after year. My favorite was “Elon wants you to get into the back seat in LA and get out in NYC” Enjoy this little stroll down memory lane - A Driverless Tesla Will Travel From L.A. to NYC by 2017, Says Musk By 2017, Tesla cars could be driving all the way across the country without any hands on the wheel, according to CEO Elon Musk. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna670206

Also for us poor rubes who bought v3 and then got told “oh FSD on v3 is 3x safer than a human, you don’t need to upgrade”

Yesssir! Purchased in February 2020. That koolaid back then was deelishus! I’ll be watching closely to see what my options are.

Yeah, I own a HW3 (probably), 2021 Model Y. Less than 3 years old, and already they’re talking about features that might require HW4 (and probably eventually HW5)

12.5.2 is wildly stable in my experiences… still not 100% but a big step forward. I use FSD everyday. Phantom breaking, knock wood, is a nightmare of the past now… we can rejoice.

This is just the pre cursor to price hike. Get ready

One Step Forward. Two Steps Back. EVERY. SINGLE. UPDATE. I was duped into buying this shit. Dont be a dumbass like I was.

When I finally get my ASS, it’ll do everything I’d realistically want it to do. I feel like they mightve gotten approval with 12.5.2 if this is where they started out. Too much speed has gathered on the hate train at this point.

Model X?

They either don’t think they can get to level 4/5 autonomy, which I doubt…. but more likely, they are thinking, “maybe we just let everyone pay us in perpetuity for Tesla Robot-taxi’s.”

This will trigger class action lawsuits.

So they can’t get sued for not achieving Level 3 or beyond with existing cars.

I feel for early adopters. I, on the other hand, got a 2024MY last month and am thoroughly impressed with FSD for $99/month

I bought a model 3 Wheel Wheel Dr. range in 2018 with full self driving and have greatly enjoyed watching it grow up and improve. I recently transferred it to a 2023 model 3P and I frequently drive through Washington DC, around the beltway, and back-and-forth to the supermarket and local restaurants, I can't remember the last time I had to intervene- drove down to McAllen Texas and back. FSD was navigating at one point on the interstate in Texas through a construction area and I thought it got confused by trying to take a weird little exit suddenly and I overruled it. The consequence was, I ended up on a 2 lane road rural taking a huge detour before I could get back on the interstate again, because the car knew better. Learned something interesting, though, that two lane rural roads in Texas can have a 70 mile an hour speed limit. I usually like speed but cars late at night was a bit scary!

Is it shitty though? HW4 cameras have 10-12bit (conflicting info out there) output i.e. 1024-4096 brightness levels to work with for a given exposure vs mere 256 levels for a single middling exposure you see when it's saved to their non-HDR video files. Importantly, the NN doesn't operate on post-processed images, but rather *raw photon counts* because the data doesn't go through an ISP. When too much clipping is detected, exposure (capture timespan) can be adjusted more rapidly for the neural net than you would when generating video for pleasant viewing by humans. Hell it can be provided with both low and high exposure simultaneously by [counting photons received for a given pixel over both a long and a short time span](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-exposure_HDR_capture). So I'm fairly sure your assertion about dynamic range is very wrong.

Yep. The 12.5.x release was basically the first version that I felt confident to demo to friends and family. Previous versions were bad to awful where I live (Denver area) and far too stressful to show off or even use myself unless there was little to no traffic around. It's still far from being level 4 or level 5 autonomy, but it's definitely a big step up from simple autopilot. It'll be really nice when they add support for tracking with sunglasses on.

Don’t think that would hold a lot of water in court.

Read the FSD agreement.

Out of curiosity, would you trust level 4 or 5 autonomy if *everyone* didn’t have autonomy?

I purchased FSD a couple of years ago and double checked my app and it shows me FSD Supervised

Not the guy you replied to, but everyone already doesn’t have autonomy, I’m not sure I get the question.

Oh, the drama, why would you label any car as an investment and not depreciating? Oh, I'm on reddit.

The FTC should have gotten involved a long time ago.

I meant i don’t think im ever going to be at the point where im sleeping while it’s driving

On the HW4 vehicles 12.5.x is really very good. Traded my HW3 Model 3 for a HW4 MYP when they were doing the free FSD and heavy inventory discounts so I've been pretty happy with how FSD worked out. But I also didn't pay $8000 or $10000 like some people did, paid an extra $3000 on top of EAP way back in the day so it hasn't been the worst use of money since for that $3000 I got a hardware upgrade from HW2.5 to HW3.0 in my Model 3 and now I was able to transfer FSD. But I will say that I now definitely feel I have be very careful about buying stuff from Tesla. Have to basically assume that promised features can take many years longer than what they claim to show up and can be pretty half baked for a long time.

Okay, but how does that follow from your question? I don’t understand what you were looking from from a “yes” vs a “no”

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I will say I’ve been able to go on / of ramp multiple times smoothly on the latest update. Still some phantom breaking, but it’s in high construction zones with cement walls up which I felt was reasonable enough.

 Let us have our optimism 🤪

That's a good question. If there was very solid proof that it could handle any situation better than I could, then I probably would. But that has to include things like dealing with an oncoming head-on collision unless the car dodges to the shoulder, slowing down for deer that are approaching the road, avoiding potholes, avoiding road debris, avoiding dead animals, dealing with inclement weather, etc. I'd also want to see proof that it could handle all kinds of typical situations, like pulling over for passing emergency vehicles, slowing and driving around emergency vehicles parked on the shoulder, responding correctly to construction worker or traffic cop directions, and so on. Or if a tire blew, it would safely slow down and pull over to the shoulder or off the road if there isn't a shoulder. If it had faster reaction times than me in all of those rare edge cases and there was proof that it reacted to all of them well, and there was further proof that it could follow human directions and other scenarios, that would probably be enough for me (along with solid statistics backing it up, not just anecdotal examples). But that's really hard to imagine happening any time soon. It'd also need to slow down before reaching slower speed limit signs. Otherwise, I'd get speeding tickets in no time in a lot of rural towns across the US. That, at least, should be doable in the near future I would think.

At some point the majority needs to trust the robits and let the grumpy “whatever kids call us adjacent to boomers” die off and then we will have it. It will be AT LEAST 40-50 years before we have fully autonomous driving because I just trained teenagers who think FSD is stupid. Think “5G gives you COVID” people at a town hall. That’s our peers in 30 years.

“I don’t care what the website or the contract says”… and therein lies the problem with a lot of today’s mentality.

Proof is in the pudding as they say… to my knowledge Tesla doesn’t share their pudding. That said, with a couple more improvements I’ll probably be fully satisfied for my needs which is remarkable.

Yeah and I haven't seen totally mysterious phantom breaking in a long while but I've seen it get really overly aggressive with the braking for pretty minor things.

You are underestimating how remarkable the human eyes are, including dilation etc. etc.

Yeah unfortunately I’ve experienced the same… generally pedestrian related… which I’m not necessarily mad about, but I’m sure will get better

I'm all for calling people morons for thinking this - but the CEO literally told them it would be an appreciating asset. [https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/03/cars/musk-tesla-cars-value-ev-prices/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/03/cars/musk-tesla-cars-value-ev-prices/index.html)

When my car takes an exit it is so aggressive getting into the exit lane it almost sways the car into the shoulder/wall.

Pure speculation - but maybe it is targeting people with HW3. Basically saying that it won’t continuously improve because they are going to drop HW3 eventually for new FSD features

No I'm not. I suspect what I'm saying is flying over your head. For clarity: The spec for the IMX490 rumored to be used by Tesla says > Sensitivity (F5.6 Standard Value, 1/30 sec. exposure time) 2280mV (Green pixel) > > Dynamic range (EMVA Standard 1288) 120dB (140dB when prioritizing dynamic range) Dynamic range in photography or imaging typically refers to the ratio between the maximum and minimum light intensities that can be captured or displayed. It’s often measured in decibels (dB) for sensors, but for human understanding, dynamic range can be expressed in “stops” or “f-stops.” ### dB to f-stop conversion: A general rule is that a 6 dB increase doubles the signal strength, which is equivalent to 1 f-stop. So, we can use this relationship to convert dynamic range from dB to f-stops. Using the formula: \text{f-stops} = \frac{\text{dB}}{6} For a dynamic range of 120 dB: \text{f-stops} = \frac{120}{6} = 20 \text{ f-stops} For the 140 dB range: \text{f-stops} = \frac{140}{6} \approx 23.33 \text{ f-stops} ### Comparison to the human eye: The human eye is often said to have a dynamic range of around 20 f-stops when adapting between very bright and very dark conditions, though it’s closer to 10-14 f-stops at any given moment without adaptation. ### Summary 1. A 120 dB dynamic range is about 20 f-stops, which is comparable to the full dynamic range of the human eye. 2. A 140 dB dynamic range is about 23.33 f-stops, which exceeds what the human eye can handle in a single glance but could be achieved by adapting to varying light conditions. But since Tesla probably takes the multi-exposure photon counts from the camera directly rather than relying on the camera's processing (whose purpose is to output a single 24-bit, or 8bit per color image), its performance is likely even better.

The only real * is pending gov approval. We were promised level 5 autonomy in 2017 lol

😂😂🤪 I know I know… in my boat though I paid upfront for the FSD… AND THEN they released their subscription model… AND THEN they dropped the subscription price even more… the drop in price coupled with the subscription offset caused depreciation on software still being released and not the car itself which I can whine about all day long apparently 😅😂

I’m not a computer programmer or anything but i could have told you in 2016 that when he said “all cars with current 2.5 hardware will drive coast to coast with no driver behind the wheel. No additional hardware will be necessary it’s just a matter of software” was all a big fat lie and sells pitch. I don’t need to be a trained fire fighter to point that the house is burning. Or I don’t need to be a surgeon to tell you that that stinky green foot needs to be amputated. It’s called common sense. Like I said I’m not a computer programmer or anything like that but I’ve been around tech and know how fast tech moves and the ever increasing demand for more powerful and faster hardware every year or so.

Any phantom braking is pretty much a deal breaker especially when kids are involved.

Braking

how about when using cruise control with opposing traffic?

If the case is so compelling and an absolute home run then why isn’t there already a lawsuit going? Or is there?

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Maybe it will make you feel better, but I paid upfront for FSD and still haven't been able to use it and now have a car with 100k on it.

More than that, the CEO promised the cars came equipped with everything needed for that package, not just that it's an appreciating asset but also that it's a full and complete package that just needed updating

Joggle nailed it

Not once since 12.5.2

I think there's an argument to be made though, because a person could've bought the car with the idea that they can purchase the FSD subscription to use on the months they needed it

Yes, we threw money at Elon, and what does he do? Overpaid for Twitter…

Sure they might have had that idea. But did tesla ever advertise or say to their customers, “This car will always be able to use FSD on a monthly subscription if you choose to do it later”? The only reason a lot of owners have any ground is that they’ve clearly said what FSD is, and when you buy FSD it guarantees your car will work on their final product.

I purchased FSD a couple of years ago and double checked my app and it shows me FSD Supervised now.

It may also depend on your hardware. EAP folks never got any HW upgrade. I’m on the original 2018 HW. Driving in Toronto is scary with it on. It’s always reactive and can’t merge unless the space is large enough to merge an 18-wheeler.

That's what they implied with "every car comes fully capable of FSD" So they guaranteed every car made after a certain day is capable of using FSD, all you had to do was purchase it whenever you wanted

Level 5 autonomy is never coming to current HW

Former Tesla salesperson here - I definitely said this to a lot of customers haha. I do believe it'll still happen one day though, and I do think Tesla will make it happen on cars that were purchased with that package. As to when that will happen, who knows. I hope it's soon, I have one too!

I'd be perfectly content with L3 at this point

I’d have to ask for receipts that they guaranteed you’d be able to purchase fsd whenever you wanted for the life of the vehicle.

Are they theories if they are true?

Unless you’re in Puerto and can’t buy shiiit

Must be to prepare for HW5 / AI5.

Interesting, my salesperson tried to NOT sell me FSD. Told me it was definitely not going to work for years, probably won't work before I decide to get a new vehicle. This was 2018.

When buying any product always judge it by its current capabilities, not by its future potential, regardless what the sellers says.

That sounds unfortunate and a nice lawsuit

So you wouldn’t consider a license to use IP as an asset?

I hope something starts up. My HW3 car is never going to get the upgrades or functionality that was promised. I won’t buy another Tesla unless they do something to compensate for that. Biggest purchase regret of my life.

yep, I got the FSD, not just hardware capable of the FSD, but the full FSD, on an X way back. The lease expired in 2020 and I had to give the car back then. We were notified that the car would need new hardware for FSD but that our X was not eligible at the time we had to hand it back. So we got neither FSD nor FSD hardware as promised before having to hand the car back.

It tells me that true autonomy will not come to HW3 and prior. The best it will get is "full self driving (supervised)." To me though that should result in a class action lawsuit, because true autonomy was promised.

It has improved. It will improve. But to get to unsupervised driving it gets exponentially harder with each incremental requirement. The number of possible edge cases are nearly infinite.

Ye I know I was joking. Some people are freaking out

The person in the driver's seat is only there for legal reasons.

I wish a lawyer could ELI5 how there isn't a class action over this.

I worry about this Like, what is taking so long for 12.5 to go to AI3? I didn’t pay for my FSD I bought used with it included but I would still be pretty pissed

And I presume you paid for and got FSD? No FSD here plus got a fuckupdated to additional proactive breaking few days ago which made it even worse. It's almost like Tesla crippling cars even more to force you onto FSD...

How is Elon not considered in the same boat as Elizabeth Holmes??

Oh look, you misspelled “legitimate concerns”

Now that actually sounds like a lawsuit, going back and retroactively changing your FSD type is sketchy behavior.

We were all suckered by a snake oil salesman

I can assure you, my car would have totally itself many times had I not been in the drivers seat to stop if

Same, my sales person in 2017 cautioned against FSD at the time saying it offered absolutely nothing and could be added on at any time down the road. I knew what I was buying at the time.

My main issue with phantom braking is only from speed limit changes, but it's definitely annoying.

What are you driving? I haven’t had much phantom braking since 2022. Honestly having seen the advancement from 2016 where it would brake for a shadow, to now where it’s pretty solid, this advancement is monumental. Source: VP of Data Science & Machine Learning

This is a joke…………….. Right? I don’t own a Tesla but $99/m subscription for an empty promise?

How is it a joke? I literally did not touch my steering wheel on my 30 min commute to work this morning..

Yeah, that's already removed from Tesla's website, so, it never existed...

You pay $1200 a year for that?

It really says it won’t come to HW4. That’s what’s being sold right now and what this is talking about.

Given that they've already made customers upgrade their hardware before to access FSD, and there's already newer hardware out there than is being utilized by the current version of FSD (Emulating HW3 until they move over to HW4), do you really think that? I have HW 2.5 and I would have to pay to upgrade to be able to use FSD. I really don't see how you can be that optimistic about their promise to turn my M3 into a robotaxi. Seems unlikely.

Sony got sued for doing this with Linux and the PS3 and lost.

If that helps, current FSD is optimized for HW3, I have HW4 on my MY and HW3 on my M3.

And that every car would be a robotaxi. FSD is just a massive scam.

I understand but I have HW3 and still no 12.5. I’m just wondering if they will still be able to compress the size enough when we get to V13 etc

You didn't buy FSD, if you did, I think they'll eventually be able to make good on that deal.

They are "virtualizing virtualizing" the kernel and compression so "it works", ready to cross all 10 of your finger and toes?

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it’s wild that they are using complete vision while it’s incomparable to uss

Elon’s and Tesla’s word is what holds weight. We all know how salesmen are.

Haha yeah I am a long term holder without anything left to cross lol

Honestly I’m sure the fine print saves them of lawsuits. They do need to stop trying to pretend like hw3 and prior is going to get proper fsd. It is what it is when you buy it and they will try to make it as good as they can. It’s holding back true fsd

Doesn’t matter. Manufactures say your trans fluid is “lifetime”, warranties say they’ve got your back, etc etc.

There might be level 3+ autonomy on your vehicle but there's no way Tesla will ever cover any sort of accident arising from it 99.99% of the time. It's just way too much liability.

Meanwhile Waymo drives around PHX all day and night collecting 30$ checks with NO driver ever. Just saying …..

Seems odd since all new cars are already AI4. Unless they already know AI4 will never reach full autonomy. $8k is too much for something that won’t continue updating towards unsupervised FSD. I don’t like the sneaky nature of this if this is their intent. Hopefully everyone else up to this point is grandfathered in to whatever hardware upgrades are necessary for FSD unsupervised.

Things were VERY different back in 2018. Back then, buying FSD only cost around $3k and got you ZERO features. Nothing. Just a promise of “maybe” one day autonomy. It was 100% vaporware. Tesla sales folks pushed the $5k EAP option instead of FSD. At some point in 2019 I believe, Tesla completely restructured autopilot/FSD from a sales standpoint. They created “basic autopilot” and gave it away for free with every car. They stopped offering EAP, so the only upgrade path was to FSD. FSD became the only way to get the EAP features, plus the promise of “maybe” one day autonomy. So no, it’s not surprising or interesting that a salesperson swayed a customer against what was called “FSD” back in 2018. I bet it happened a decent amount. IMO at least.

1. Any one that has bought FSD is dumb. Just my opinion. It’s like preordering a video game then getting mad that it’s unfinished 2. People that paid for a very specific CAPABILITY absolutely have a right to be upset when the company just decides those people don’t get what they paid for.

https://preview.redd.it/b62cg8wqiwnd1.png?width=1008&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=08cac8e8ff3fc47ddddb88de181720d9b2367a43 Proof

Kinda dumb to pay $99 a month for some half ass promise IMO. FSD should be free for all.

Right? Lol

Robotaxis will be a failure won’t they…

Premapped only in very specific areas. Not even close to the same thing.

The FSD agreement was not part of purchasing the car. Every person who bought a model 3 early on was sold a car with “full self-driving hardware”.

No way you actually think it's been getting worse over the years. What is can do today is so much better than what it was doing even just a year ago.

What kind of rage bait is this? Who cares if it no longer says it will continuously improve? That's implied. They release updates all the time and continuously improve it. That's not stopping. In fact, they just posted a roadmap explaining exactly how they're going to be improving it over the next couple months. As for "supervised", it's supervised today, but the goal has always been and still remains unsupervised once it gets good enough. That haven't stopped saying that. People always read way too much into trivial website changes and assume the worst. It's BS.

If I buy FSD, can I transfer it from one car I own to the next? Thinking about buying it for my car, but will be in the market for a new/used Tesla in a year….

In the UK, people are taking Tesla through the small claims legal process on this. You can claim for the original FSD upgrade cost, 8% interest and all legal costs.  There is one case discussed on TMC forum that includes sample letters that resulted in Tesla settling - without even a confidentiality clause that they initially requested.

Current HW isn't capable is what this means

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My model 3 just drove me around 70 minutes in northern California with no interventions outside of Waymo's geofenced areas.

Cries in European

Have people been in winning or is that one case an anomaly? My purchase is in China. I suspect I would win here too but waiting to see if it finally rolls out in Q1 2025 as has been promised here, but we've had empty promises for quite a few years now. [https://x.com/Tesla\_AI/status/1831565197108023493?ref\_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1831565197108023493%7Ctwgr%5Ea7a6f066e3c19634764599818de46f2662f07e25%7Ctwcon%5Es1\_&ref\_url=https%3A%2F%2Fmashable.com%2Farticle%2Ftesla-fsd-europe-china](https://x.com/Tesla_AI/status/1831565197108023493?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1831565197108023493%7Ctwgr%5Ea7a6f066e3c19634764599818de46f2662f07e25%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fmashable.com%2Farticle%2Ftesla-fsd-europe-china)

Have you got a link?

Nobody ever did because they never succeeded and it isn't legal, it's a driver aid.  I would at least ask for the option price money back.

Yeah, it’s only able be full self driving with the driver watching. Not without the driver watching. Like schrödingers cat.

I mean is that why they currently allow FSD transfers only for that FSD to not be transferable afterwards and end the ‘legal’ issue there?

That’s called planned obsolescence.

I really want to know: I had a model 3 with FSD paid in full. I transferred my FSD to a new model 3 and it no longer says Full Self Driving, it says Full Self Driving (supervised). Did they downgrade me without telling me?

FSD is a level 2 system. That's what 'supervised' means.

Same thing shows for me too

Just checked my June 2021 Model 3 and saw the same thing. Good thing I have printouts of all of my original delivery docs.

Yeah, I mean, if we are trying to read the tea leaves, maybe they just believe robotaxi is close enough that they want to stop giving away the capability to the general public for peanuts.

Unfortunately, it probably won't be L3 on current hardware. See a more detailed explanation here: https://redd.it/1f7x2dr

Lol. 2k différence mate

Someone else in this thread posted about their app updating My FSD on my June 2021 Model 3 is now named “Full Self-Driving (Supervised)” within the app They are playing games and it is about to blow up in a whole new way

Strange, my 2020 MY with HW3 has 12.5 for the last week or two.

Turning everybodys car into a self-driving Taxi was a core promise of Tesla every year since 2017. People paid money for a package that promised to deliver exactly on that. The CEO repeated this multiple times a year. Last time this year. This is fraud in plain sight and just another legal nightmare for Tesla waiting to happen.

Yes but by March of this year everyone should've known that Musk lies all the time

That is one interpretation. Another interpretation is that they still intend to enable FSD unsupervised on customer cars sold before this change and they don't want to sell FSD unsupervised to the general public for peanuts going forward.

Not impossible, but if that was the case then it would have been enough to just change the wording on the website. Everybody who bought it after the change gets only FSD supervised. However, they went ahead and changed the wording in the app for everyone.

The line in the app just says what you have currently installed, not what you have purchased. You're reading WAY too much into that. And afaik they changed it ages ago.

That's if they were equal. Performance should have more value than LR, and then you add the value of FSD.

Technically speaking, the SAE levels of driving automation are clearly defined.

It’s more about liability. In today’s Tesla’s, you are liable if it causes an accident. With level 5, you can read a book or watch a movie, and the car manufacturer is legally liable if there’s an accident. What it can do today is impressive, but, you’re not even supposed to take your eyes off the road, much less watch a movie. This is also needed to let the car drive empty, and come pick you up from miles away, on public roads. (Although with the upcoming ASS, it can do this in a parking lot, but only with you supervising through the camera view in the app)

Tesla is only at level 2. Those levels are not some subjective scale of how well the car drives. There are clear rules what the system needs to be able to do for each level. Level 3 would mean that you could legally take your hands of the wheel until the system asks for your intervention. Meaning the system needs to be able to reliability recognize that it can't handle the current situation. That also means that the driver is not responsible for the actions taken by the L3 system - the manufacturer is. So if your car runs a red light during L3 it's the manufacturer who gets to pay the ticket. Level 4 means you don't need a driver sitting in the car, but there are still limitations (e.g. works only in good weather conditions or in certain cities.) Level 5 means the system can handle every situation a human driver could handle. FSD can't do any of the above. It's still only level 2. (full control of the car, but needs constant supervision) Afaik Mercedes is the only one offering a level 3 system at the moment.

Classic Elon living on his own timeline separate from reality

Are they still making any of their vehicles with HW3?

Maybe it’s the 150k miles? I have a third of that and I think my trade in is significantly higher.

I think you're confused. He's calling bullshit on the 2018 M3P with FSD only getting a trade in offer of $8000 when his 2018 M3LR without FSD and 150k miles got a trade in offer of $10,500.

I was late 2016 - wasn't told about the Autopilot AP1 to AP2 switch, that was the first clue looking back that things were going to get funky. I kind of knew they couldn't do it, but expected the car to be future proofed with the FSD package. I guess I did get some new hardware... but we're never getting what we were promised, or even close.

Lmfao

AP 2 was significantly worse than AP 1 for quite a while. MobileEye dropped Tesla when they realized what they were promising was outlandish.

Yep. And to think how excited I used to be for every update. We used to run to see what was added. I miss those days when I could still believe in the company, and ignore the early warning signs as start up missteps.

Yes, and you still had to agree to the terms and conditions of the full self-driving beta when you activated the feature.

But the current FSD will drive you from LA to NYC, won’t it? Surely you need to sit behind the wheel, but still.

From the article “By the end of next year, said Musk, Tesla would demonstrate a fully autonomous drive from, say, “a home in L.A., to Times Square ... without the need for a single touch, including the charging.”” … By the end of 2017. This claim was made in 2016. You tell me if those expectations were met by someone buying a Tesla with the FSD package in 2017 for 5K extra. Have they been realized now in 2024? I would confidently argue “not even close”. Charging delusions aside, tell me if you would get in that back seat in LA and what you think your chances of making it to Times Square alive are as we enter fall of 2024.

So what, I bought the first IBM PC and paid $5000 for it. Now I can get it desktop with 1000 more computer capability for $350. I’m not bitching. It’s just progress.

No fsd, I've not had any phantom braking in a year or so. Even before that it was extremely minimal

Technically that’s a legal reason - to stop the unmanned car from crashing.

yes, see my reply to gzmonkey above

This is just Tesla limiting their FSD class-action liability to past purchasers of FSD.

One expects that’s over decades not days… and it was considerably more than a 5K investment in the FSD alone 😂😂

I’m so sorry!!!!

I have a 2024 model y with HW3

I’m glad I don’t own a Tesla. It really feels like you’re getting screwed in many ways I didn’t know a car owner could.

you might need to censor the link as it seemsto have been removed

Where was it made?

I have come to the realization that Tesla legal long ago concluded that they won’t be able to deliver true FSD in the next few years … for those who claim it is just a version or two away, Tesla has been saying that for 8 years … now their only hope to avoid a massive, successful class action is to gradually tighten up the fine print and get as many of the grandfathered vehicles as possible off the road though time … crashes, resale, attractive deals to put folks in new Teslas … thus essentially aging out the old FSD agreements until it hits a manageable level to settle or pay out from an inevitable suit. Time is now their friend regardless of how counterintuitive that may seem on the surface.

Better than taking an $8k upfront risk.

That’s not related to what I am referring to.

This is due to legal reasons. They cannot call it like they used to until they have all capabilities released. It don’t have anything to do with the actual software, it’s a marketing rule

What do you mean? At purchase, they either charge $8,000 or a monthly fee?

If you are gonna wait every time he gives a new timeline for it you’ll be waiting forever

Pretty much but it is the first comment he made on China publicly I think. Most of the promises were coming from Tesla China.

Glad I didn’t get FSD on my wife’s 2024 Model Y. We just had the 1 month trial and it was awesome, but not worth the $10k.

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theoretically nothing prevents vision from driving like we do because we use vision as well its rly the brain and judgement that makes fsd drive like a tard

Search TMC for terms like FSD claim experience, you'll find it.

Yes, you can pay $8k when you purchase or $99 a month that you can add/cancel any time.

How is it full if it's supervised

Ooh yeeeeah!! $15K some had paid for this gimmick..boy oooh boyyyy!!

LMaO!! Same CEO vowed "fsd" &robotaxi wld be available in 2020!!

Preeeeeeach 💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯

U mean from 2019 onwards

Looove the UK & the EU where consumer rights are actually taken seriously! Heard if a guy who sued Tesla in the UK for the gimmick that is FSD..and he won!!!!!!

Lmao! Thats now not worth a loaf of bread!!! & Spending his time getting drunk &high in the conspiracy theory abyss! Unbelievable! What happened to this guy????

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Ooh this is goooooold!! I am gonna save this link fir the Elon excusers!!!

Classaction lawsuit is whats needed!!

Tesla owners are super weird, at times it's like everyone is on $7/hr or something. I'm in Romania and i'd pay $99 a month in a heartbeat for FSD

Software advances can happen at any time, it's possible it'll improve

I was an employee back then so I got it for free. I’d be pissed if that wasn’t the case.

No, except for during very limited promotions that they've said they won't do again. You can also just subscribe for 99$/month and cancel/restart it at any time.

Fine print doesn't save people from lawsuits. You can't hide nonsense in fine print while saying other things to people directly. Like, I can't slip into a contract when I sell my home that the buyer has to let me live in it for free forever. That's not how it works.

Definitely not the same. It actually works!

Lucky you BUT everyone else got taken to the cleaners by Elon's BS

I think buying it is a bad ideea unless it's transferable. Rent it out for the 90 bucks a month But to answer your question, no you can't transfer it

And you were sitting in the back seat, watching a movie?

Different computer, same HW Mine is a 2018

Not a lawyer, but virtually everyone who has purchased a Tesla in the United States is bound by a class action waiver. If you bought a Tesla and didn't mail a tracked letter to their random ass PO box listed in your sale contact opting out, you almost certainly gave up your right to join a class action. I say almost certainly because I'm not positive if they've always included the waiver or added it some year. With so few people to be represented, there's not really much financial incentive for a lawyer to take the case, especially since it's uncertain they would win. Afaik, no one has any contract or document that states they'll be delivered level 5 autonomy by any deadline. Whether tweets to the masses from the CEO could be weighed in as part of a legal contact executed in the future... I highly doubt, but that is indeed a question for a lawyer.

Yup. So that’s even worse for HW3

Every HW3 vehicle was sold with that promise though. There very likely will be a lawsuit over it. Unfortunately it’s very unlikely that would result in specific performance to upgrade existing vehicles and much more likely it would result in some kind of partial refund for people who bought the FSD package and those who upgraded from HW2.5, and maybe some token amount for every HW3 vehicle even if they never used FSD since that possibility may have been part of their purchasing decision.

And additionally that they dont want to upgrade old cars (or cant, but its more of a dont want to because $$, than a true "cant")

No. They simply rebranded FSD, probably to make it more clear.

Totally agree. More people that are going to be unhappy if they truly thought their cars were going to be autonomous at some point.

👌👌👌🤣😂🤣😂

My 2017 still says "Full Self Driving Capability"

It's not going to exist for at least another decade. Tesla isn't even close.

I used to say that it's worth about 2k, and that I'd pay maybe 4k if it were really good. Then they gave me a month free. I learned that month that I wouldn't even use it if it were free. Love my model 3 but the self driving is embarrassing. And now my autopilot constantly screams at me to pay attention to the road despite always having eyes on it because their interior camera doesn't like the glare off my clear lens prescription glasses that I need to see, and to literally be able to legally drive.

So, that wasn't FSD. It was enhanced autopilot WITH radar from several years ago. The type of crash was extremely common with Tesla's radar, and if you watch the labeling, you can see why. A stationary object in the road will easily be labeled as a bridge to be ignored (that's just how the typical non precise radars used for adaptive cruise control work). It had about a second to reconcile the bad radar data with the visual feed and failed, as it had with many other vehicles, even in daylight. I haven't seen those types of collisions since they switched to vision only. For the one in the video, I'd imagine vision only would at least apply the brakes and still smash into it. A human would just plow into it at 75 mph like EAP did. Sideways black truck with no lights on (in this case, no lights left), on an interstate is 100% going to get hit by someone. For what it's worth, Tesla did supposedly start putting precision radars in it's premium vehicles (S/X) in late 2023 with HW4, but they have not acknowledged it and obviously haven't started to use them. It could have been a few, or maybe they're still doing it, no one really knows because it requires a chunk of disassembly to check.

Have you actually used it in its current form? If so you probably wouldn’t be saying that.

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No one (of 2024 model) even has the features advertised that I bought yet (actually smart summon) so for it to be discounted already as this is the real world—- I have opinions

And probably 99% of those nickels would come from Elon.

He is who he always has been. Money just made him more of it. He's not the "guy" about 6 engineers and 4 designers are. He's just the money and frontman (face).

Did the OS work on your IBM? If so, you have no point. FSD does not work as intended and in some cases not at all. Software is not installed. Some have parts of it.

You paid indirectly

There has always only been one FSD available.

This is the answer

Actually I basically stole my M3P for $5k under KBB. The dealer surely took a loss or broke even at best

It's actually still in beta, as we are all still beta testing under a supervised name.

I feel like this maybe the plan for Tesla now. Just keep pushing back the release until people that paid for it get another car.

["My wife has to *\[drive the car\]* for entirely legal reasons."](https://youtu.be/wzOf0Li2xYg?t=149)

Depreciation is the only direction durable goods really know how to go in.

Put one of those slideable camera blockers over the interior camera.. I never get yelled at (on regular autopilot)

"There isn't much phantom braking. The advancement has been great. Source = my credentials" is such a deaf response when every parent would think twice about implications of unpredictable phantom braking in the highway with their baby in the back seat.

Sure, but everyone knows he makes ambitious statements. We know things change as this is new technology. he's an industrialist and not an economist. Cheers

Agreed, which is why he's getting himself in trouble for making false claims and selling snake oil to get rich

My plaid S launch will be a robotaxi that will make me $500 a day. I’m convinced

Not really getting himself in trouble. They've changed the verbiage and when you buy fsd you agree to the terms which are pretty clear. He's not selling snake oil. Tesla is extremely successful. Musk is annoying and well... Lolololol. But these two things are mostly Seperate. Forward looking statements are not fraud and he personally only announces ideas etc. That's on the suckers, but I generally agree with the sentiment regardless

Changing verbiage after purchase doesn't forfeit them from their duties lol, so yeah the FSD promises apply to those that bought them before, not buying after Changing verbiage is snake oil salesmen technique, hence the metaphor Forward looking statements are not fraud, guaranteeing you're purchasing something then Changing verbiage like you stated though is fraud Elon trying to make suckers of everyone is what will bite him in the ass one day

That's hardware. Like my PC has "MS Excel Capability"

The terms didn't change. The advertising did. Right, but it's not snake oil. They're pouring billions into different development. It'd be different if they weren't. That's not fraud. What suckers? The company prints money and is forcing the competition into bankruptcy because they lose their ass building evs. The products work and are getting better.

Sorry you were unable to understand my point.

You are right on the timeframe but not in the dollar sense. I looked up what $5000 in 1982 was worth today. $16,297.41 dollars

It's snake oil because they did this: "Buy it now and it'll have guaranteed FSD that'll take you coast to coast!" *watches you sign it, waits a bit, changes the wording* "What?... I never promised that your car would take you coast to coast! Show me where it says that!" So they're lying about it to bring in sales That's Changing the terms, your contract will also say "FSD" etc but the definition of that was on their website, which they're changing I like my car, I like the FSD, but there's no hiding the snake oil they're selling by being scummy and if we start defending their BS that'll encourage companies to do the same: "Buy my new iPad! Any ipad bought from todays date and onward will be guaranteed to handle VR/AR natively by next year!" Next year "oh if you want to handle VR/AR natively you'll have to buy the new iPad with the new processor... why did you think the old one would work today?... sucker!" Like you need to be blind and obtuse not to see that lol

Valid

But that isn’t how it was worded when it was sold. By changing the wording they are washing the original promise of the original purchases.

Truuuuuuue

FSD my behind!!👀👀

You are right my friend! Really sad!!

HW 2.5 and currently has FSD lifetime 12.3.

FYI: for the good of the order... https://web.archive.org/web/20240730071548/https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware

This sounds possible, but there are still some of the S/X from the first few years of production going. Given that HW3 is on the majority of vehicles sold (a couple million), I don't know how efficient of a strategy this would be. I think they will try to bribe people away from a suit with some variation of "free FSD trips on robotaxi for X amount of years if you waive any class action rights"

Everyone is seeing this as them giving up. This could just be a step towards (Unsupervised). It's possible this is also for regulation reasons. It could be much easier to pitch to other regions if the driver is SUPPOSED to be watching the road. I think they will release Unsupervised in the Robotaxi (HW5+) first and trickle it backwards on the HW4. I doubt it can actually hit HW3 unless they magically get the compute per watt to match something with significantly more watts available to it. HW 4 is 3-8x more capable than HW3 using more watts and 2x ram and 4x memory with the same watt limitation. HW5 is supposed to have 800 watts available. This means even HW4 is likely insufficient.

Its probably that tesla can’t surmount the legal liability issues of potential accidents that could result using full continuous self driving. I have used it and you can hack the system to basically make it full self driving, and it technically works, road conditions permitting. So it is likely the legal issue.

After reading many of ray kurzweils books and some of hans moravecs books. It's extremely easy to know that the current hardware does not have the right amount of computation necessary to be robotaxi levels.

Same here. I paid for it and now shows supervised only. BS if you ask me.

Not all of us. Even as a 2018 Model 3 owner when offered it for $2000 I declined. I had heard enough BS from Elon by then to know he is just talking out of his ass and that there was a very low probability that it would ever come to fruition.

I just caught a snippet of a podcast where they were discussing Musk and the point that I got was that Musk's behavior on Twitter is probably just about keeping people engaged with the site because it helps dig him out of the financial hole that he and his dodgy "investors" dug when they bought Twitter. If only they'd not forced him to follow through on his offer... where would we be now? (actually I do think he has made some changes that are improvements, but the platform is still v broken in terms of his gigaphone)

Yeah, I had to disable FSD because of this and go back to autopilot.

You have a typo. I'm pretty sure you meant "He is a charlatan not an economist or industrialist."

Tbh, what promise do you think they made you? When I purchased it, they were VERY vague on what it actually will do. As for supervised or not, all they said about it previously was: "Full autonomy will be dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions." In other words, "we'll try, but no promises". Regardless, legally, a name change would not absolve them of their obligation. However, they've likely realistically already met their obligation legally, so long as Elon's words don't matter (if they did, he would have already been sued for robo taxi by like 2018 promises, appreciating asset promises, etc).

And where you would go to jail having this discussion.

same, I've had FSD since 2019 and my app also says Supervised

Im out of the loop here. Can someone explain whats going on with FSD and why everyone is pissed?

I’m on HW4

The full self driving is the only reason I was going to purchase a Tesla. Take that away and I’ll go with someone else.

Calling it "Supervised" is how they are able to roll it out. That way the government believes it relieves them from any blame if it goes bad. It's the game the gov plays.

Oh

The terms for FSD beta did not even exist when I bought my car. FSD Beta didn’t even exist. This was back in the NOAP days. Navigate On Auto-Pilot. That’s what we bought for $7k at the time, with updates to come for full self driving. Pushing the narrative of future capability to just add your car to the robofleet coming some day. Everyone expecting their cars to appreciate in value due to FSD lol (I was not I this camp lol but trust me they were around). I was sold a “full self driving computer” for $7k. This was in February of 2020.

Ahhh I understand what you mean now.

Wow. So it's exactly the same thing... But using different words. What a controversy! I should be outraged, I guess! ;)

Pretty much this. Nothing that actually matters has changed. FSD features will always come first to the most powerful hardware which needs less software optimization. Then as the models are better optimized the lesser hardware will be able to run it. Just like how a RasPi couldn't run an LLM, until the LLM got good enough to run it on a little arm SOC.

We made it! https://www.aol.com/tesla-switches-full-self-driving-153154652.html

Any word on how this effects fsd transfer? Would love to pick up a new one this month but if I don’t get fsd as promised anymore it seems risky

I didn't purchase FSD in 2018, but was still sold a "FSD-capable car", Tesla hasn't let me install my own software in this thing yet, not sure how "FSD-capable" it was.

AMA

Have been on 12.5.x for awhile. Got 2024.32.10 with 12.5.4.1 a couple days ago. I honestly didn't notice much different. Still nags, but probably because no internal camera to check on me.

Berlin

I just think it adds the “supervised” for legal reasons so idiots won’t quote Tesla literally when they fall asleep thinking the car is going to drive it self.

https://teslaunch.net/products/model-3-y-autopilot-nag-elimination-module-for-tesla-steering-wheel-module