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Too bad it’s more expansive for me. I’m paying $100 thru all state for my 2024 3 and Tesla insurance is quoting $212 for identical coverage. I bet is based on all the false FWC alarms I get daily and other data they been gathering like late driving.
In other words, 10% premium penalty for using Tesla insurance without FSD. Ghost FCWs are far from fixed, and far better rates (even without telemetry) are readily available.
And yet, Tesla isn’t taking responsibility for FSD by certifying it as SAE level 3
This is how you know PSD actually works, when insurance people see statistics that says it's safer than a human.
Parked cars are probably 95% of my FCWs
It's Tesla using their insurance to push FSD.
I worked on the Tesla Insurance product in CA. I thought there was some sort of Autonomous Vehicle coverage available through their product that effectively passed some sort of liability to Tesla when using FSD. Could be wrong on my understanding of how it worked though.
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The same principle still applies. They will base it off data that will reduce lawsuits.
We'll see when that happens.
They wouldn't want to push use of it unless it were safer, when they have to pay out very real money for any accidents.
This is smart. Tesla are basically paying people to maximize their usage of FSD. More miles driven on FSD = more data to train FSD on. It’s not a coincidence that they are implementing this first in the same state where they plan on piloting the CyberCab this summer.
Correct.
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10’percent isn’t enough to deal with that nag and have be monitored while your in the car.
Nope, look at your passenger for 2 seconds and the car loses its mind. I want SAE level 3 on highway so bad. FSD is cool but I can’t do anything other than driving. If the car can drive itself really autonomously, then make it official and let me play with my phone or watch Netflix in the screen. Give me time back.
it's also not enough to justify buying FSD.. Texas Tesla insurance for me is 115 a month.. so to get a 11.50 discount I have to spend 6K?? tell me how that makes sense. payback on that is in decades..
Why would it be only 10%? It should approach 100% as FSD gets better and better, since the premise of the whole system is, if something goes wrong, it's Tesla's fault. It should start at like a \~50% discount now if you are using FSD 90%+ of the time, and go up from there as it improves.
wow, hard pass
Unless there’s some accident forgiveness for accidents that happen with FSD I’d say this is a hard pass. FSD is nowhere near as defensive as a human driver.
It literally never nags you if you’re paying attention to the road. Unless you have a old version of FSD.
This is the of beginning of insurance companies pricing regular drivers out of operating their vehicles and forcing all of us onto self driving cars.
The commenter is saying that the equation changes. its: \[extra\_fsd\_payments\] + \[premiums\] (reduced 10%) - \[liabilities\] instead of what was traditionally: \[premiums\] - \[liabilities\] Meaning, you don't know if the liabilities are actually reduced because if the liabilities are actually increased by 1% but the the extra\_fsd\_payments cover the 1% increase in liabilities and 10% decrease in premiums, the math still works for the company even though they pay out more in liabilities. Meaning, it doesn't tell you anything. edit: as other people pointed out, even if it costs the company money to do this, maybe the gathering of data is worth it to them. So, again, tells you nothing regarding the liabilties.
You are reading a lot into a very generic statement. Are the new Tesla insurance prices 10% higher than they were before the discounts? If so then your formula may be correct. If not then we know the discount exists because FSD is statically saver and will involve fewer or lower payouts.
Wow. They've gone from just testing in production, to bribing people to let them test in production.
No, you don't have to spend 6K. You spent 99 a month and you save 11.50 because of that.
Spend $20,000 for FSD and get 10% off on insurance premium. That sounds like a great deal! 👌👌👌
still not a good deal for what you get..
Well the rest of the world gets zero discount, so if you're already getting the FSD, it certainly is a good deal. Certainly isn't an incentive to actually get FSD, but for those of us who do use it, it's a great deal.
Yeah that makes no sense. I love that here in Texas I can lower my premium by driving more safely. Why did California make that illegal?
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What if my FSD won't engage and Tesla refuses to fix it for 11 months so far
That is interesting but remember that Tesla has way more accurate data than any insurance company. They even know about close calls that an insurance company would never see (because they are not an accident, just a near miss), and how often different kinds of close calls resolve into accidents by percentage. I couldn't tell from that post you linked to if the findings on rideshare drivers just pertained to EV rides drivers, or generally. I could see where if someone drove more often they actually would become safer drivers because they simply had a lot more practice and also better intuition as to what other drivers would do, or how to drive through complex intersections that might have a higher crash rate for normal drivers.
Its reversed. You're reading a lot into a 10% discount that may not mean anything close to what you think it means. Your last sentence is wrong for the very reason I outlined earlier.
Deja vu
Because it's not reliable enough for that yet. They're targeting June for the first unsupervised version starting in Austin, Texas, which would mean SAE Level 4.
No, that's not how it works. If using FSD reduces accident rates, that allows a true premium reduction.
Oh sorry I was just using math and common sense, have a nice day if you are taking a different path.
Unfortunately you're just ignorant, yet confidently so. Bad combo. The per mile accident rate on FSD is lower than manual driving.
You think the rates for self-driving cars shouldn't be cheaper if they cause fewer accidents? You want to pay the same high prices as today?
Cool. You too, have a nice day. Good luck with the math and common sense.
That is absolutely how it works for companies when they calculate their bottom line, especially when it is a 'discount' released only in test markets. Why do you think we have not seen 'self driving discounts' from insurance companies not partnered directly with a manufacturer? Especially one who has a ton of interest in selling a multi-thousand dollar, a la carte software item (than cannot generally be transferred)?
To help you understand, answer this question: Since Tesla obviously wants to make as much money as possible, why don't they charge $1,000 per month for their insurance?
Yep. most of mine are leaving or entering my neighborhood. Speed limit is 30mph, but I go ~25mph. For the last 2 months Ive been using FSD as soon as I leave my garage (thanks v13!), so maybe I'll try another quite in 6 months to see if 0 FWC/6m will bring my rates down.
Would love for Tesla insurance to make its way to more states, has it come out in any new states in the last year? Selfishly would love it for NY but it seems like i haven’t heard ANY expansion news in forever.
Then car insurance companies should not exist then. We should not be liable if we are not in control. So it s a win/win for us.
Yep. If Tesla is so confident in FSD that it will ship unsupervised later this year, then give us huge discount based on FSD usage. If 95% of miles were driven on FSD, then 95% discount on insurance. Why would I pay you a big fee if I am not in control 95% of the time.
100%. My insurance (all state) gives me like $120 off my 6 month premium if I pay the entire amount in full. If I pay monthly its "full price" but its just similar to credit card interest rate. Pay in full or pay more later.
If they give a 10% discount for FSD, then they think the car is better than a human. If so, why not make it official?
Would still be more expensive than competitors. I'm changing as soon as this month ends.
Nope, FSD with a human supervising is better than a human driving manually. Unsupervised, it currently would be worse than a human driving manually. Big difference.
11%
If you have Tesla Insurance and choose not to use FSD at all, your price stays exactly the same as it is currently. Tell me more about how this is a price hike?
They're going to continue charging based on risk regardless. It's nothing new
The idea that car companies should bear accident liability for FSD will by itself be enough that we never see it. FSD will likely be much better than humans in avoiding accidents, but nothing will be 100%. And lawyers will be foaming at the mouth to go after the deep pockets for the inevitable accidents.
cheap data harvest
Is there a way to query how much driving you do on FSD?
Make the discount percent match the FSD-driving percent, and I'll think about it. But if I have to let it drive 50% of the time for a maximum of a 10% discount, it's clear they're not confident in it themselves.
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it won’t, they use a rate of 90 for the first two months, not some hidden safety score from before you quoted.
Good to know
I get things like premiums are higher for driving at night and that hurts some people but there’s a reason they are higher.
Wait - if it’s so safe and I use it 100% of the time I’d like a 90% reduction!
In what world is FSD 20,000?
The real problem for me isn't the occasional weird nag. It's that FSD won't drive the fucking speed I tell it to drive. All I want it to do is to drive the speed limit, but no, if I leave it alone, it goes 5-10 miles under the speed limit, and even if I use the accelerator, it will just find another time to slow down, like when approaching any green traffic light. It used to be that the most embarrassing thing you'd have to do with FSD was to stop it from making a ridiculously stupid lane change. Now, you have to constantly monitor its speed, and stop it from making ridiculously stupid lane changes.
I consider myself to be a much safer driver than the average person, and it's clear that no matter how much I complain about the current FSD, it's obviously a much safer driver than I am, with a few exceptions, like unsafe understanding of merge lanes, weird lane changes, and it can be indecisive in intersections when good drivers need to be decisive. Those exceptions are easily predictable and easy to override. (I mostly complain because it drives the wrong speed for no reason.) And I'm not surprised that Tesla drivers are worse than average, having seen the evidence with my own eyes. Teslas are fast cars that are easy to drive and they're relatively inexpensive for that criteria, so I think they attract the wrong crowd. I really think Teslas should appeal to the senior citizen crowd, for example.
None whatsoever. Tesla does not accept liability when using FSD, ever.
No way. I tried it and every jerk who cut me off would sing my score. Ended up so stressed out over a few less dollars per month and then the kicker: can’t drive at night. It’s absurd the way they ding you. No thanks.
That's a great discount. Geico only offers like $20 for paying in full.
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That’s why I like it based upon your actual driving. My son is a new driver. Because he doesn’t drive a lot and is a safe driver based upon the safety score Tesla calculates, his premium is low. With a regular insurance company, they would say that he’s young and therefore not an experienced driver and his premium would be much higher.
Not sure if silly or silly stupid...
That..... Is..... Awesome!!
The answer is you get more customers when you have lower prices. Therefore, companies set their prices as low as possible, down to a moderate amount above their costs, in order to attract as many customers as possible. So if their costs are lower due to FSD causing fewer accidents, then they can lower prices for FSD users and get even more customers. Basically: Prices are directly tied to costs. FSD = lower accident repair costs, so FSD = lower insurance prices.
Never again until they fix the false forward collision warnings. I still get them multiple times a day. Service Center says there is nothing physically wrong with my vehicles and it's a software issue. After repeatedly asking them to escalate to software team nothing has happened. It's been years now.
So drive SLOWWWW by parked cars. Easy fix.
Yup 10% ain’t shit. I heard it was gonna be like $50 off your premium which would then make it only $50 to subscribe to FSD (aka worth it!) but 10% means like $15 for me so no thanks
that's the neat part of a perpetual-beta. when it's not considered a finished product, you are solely responsible for crashes because you weren't paying enough attention to intercept the unfinished software.
that makes no sense. if FSD is safer with me behind the wheel, but i don't intercept whatsoever, then it's the same as if i wasn't behind the wheel. the only difference is my *ability* to intercept, but that doesn't affect how the software drives.
yea if you're in a state where adjustable rates are legal, you're fucked. tesla insurance isn't worth it. in CA, that is not legal, so we just get the initial (low) rate and it never budges. wanna know what's funny? in CA, you can still enable safety score, and once i did that, i started seeing all the FWC warnings for parked cars that everyone was talking about. disabled safety score and they stopped completely. haven't had one in months, compared to the 5-10 i'd get every drive with safety score on. strange huh.
You're telling me that you haven't intervened once in at least tens of thousands of miles?
I KNEW IT! Nobody cares but I called this a few years ago. Next step in making it a requirement to get insurance.
It will come as a service and insurance will be in the price. Say $599 monthy including insurance. That sort of thing.
There is little to no steering wheel nag now as of a few months ago.
Do they still not have the mechanism of reviewing false frontal colision warnings?
That’s good to hear. I haven’t tried it since the first trial.
50% lol
$100?!?!?
If FSD truly is better than humans at avoiding accidents insurance companies should be more than happy to cover it in the same way they do today.
L3 would be nice but they’re trying to leap forward to robotaxi, so building the software and assurances is not a “profitable” endeavor for them. In related news: most of Tesla stock value is hinged on self driving robotaxis eventually.
of course i've intervened. i can see those two brain cells of yours rubbing together trying to form a thought, but i would suggest just quitting while you're ahead.
I just put electrical tape over the inside camera. Sucks that I have to do it but it’s worth being able to blink without the car bitching or giving me a strike
10% isn't an insane discount, I can get 10% discount in any store for any product by just asking for a discount.
Like another poster most of mine are in my subdivision. Two specific driveways on my right side both on a straight stretch of the road, I will get a FCW warning for one if not both if four cars are parked in each. I could probably understand if they were parked on the road but they are not! Needless to say FSD will drive the same as I do on that street and not flinch, yeah I have actually turned around and gone back to the entrance and turned on FSD to see what it would do; it drove faster than I did.
I have a question. In the United States, are the insurance premiums for electric vehicles more expensive than those for gasoline - powered vehicles?
Fully supervised driving. That's always what it stood for, right?
Alright so I know I'm asking a lot from my two brain cells, but I'm fairly sure you said "I don't intercept [sic]", and now you're saying "of course I've intervened". So which is it? The point is if you let FSD go by itself for thousands of miles without intervening, it'll likely get into an accident. Therefore, FSD unsupervised today would be worse than a human.
Today, the vehicle owner carries the liability.
And I am glad.
Which means you have to keep your hand on the wheel.
No one said you should buy FSD to get this discount. There are lots of people driving around with FSD getting zero discount, this is just incentivizing people in those areas to use their already purchased FSD even more.
But if he can't argue based on incorrect data, how is he supposed to argue?
> FSD is nowhere near as defensive as a human driver. Hard disagree.
Significantly less cumbersome than having to keep eyes on the road every second of the minute. You also don’t have to do it as frequently.
He's like the ChatGPT of Reddit users.
Less cumbersome? Disagree. Also, it's not every second of the minute. I have enhanced AP on one of my Model 3s and FSD on the other one. I am familiar with their usage.
I’ve also used both. We’ll have to agree to disagree then.
As a Tesla insurance customer, I sorta like this, but asking someone to be in FSD 50% of the time for like $10-$20 a month is not a great deal.
I don't have FSD but my car literally dinged me and shit off while I was yawning this morning. YAWNING D:
>The per mile accident rate on FSD is lower than manual driving. According to tesla. They don't let anyone look at their data tho. Curious...
They publish the data every single quarter.
It’s only low in CA for the bad drivers because the good drivers are paying more to subsidize you lol.
sorry if i'm missing a joke, but i don't really get your point. i've been driving for around 10 years with no accidents. the same plan with progressive was like $200/mo, versus tesla $100/mo "full coverage". my understanding of safety score in other states is that tesla always starts you with a low rate because your score starts at 100, then all the FCWs ding you and over time your rate goes up and ends up being comparable to the other major insurance companies. unless the joke was that CA drivers are bad which, fair, but i would counter; have you been to texas? hands down worst drivers ive seen and ive driven across the country a dozen times haha
You mean humans that get into 16,000 accidents (PER DAY) in the US?
Nope, they publish a report about what they claim the data says every single quarter. They don't publish the actual data they collect, they refuse to disclose how they process and filter their data, and they don't let anyone (e.g. independent researchers) look at it either.
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Tesla insurance starts you at a Safety Score of 90 for first 2 months, then it adjusts from there. I bounce around between 93 and 97 so my rate will go down from the initial rate. Aggressive Turning has reduced my score, which was simply slow speed U turns.
What? Accidents can still happen when not FSD's fault. Drivers changing lanes right into your car, running stop lights, etc. FSD can try to avoid other bad drivers but can't stop them entirely. Now, if every car on the road was a Tesla running with FSD 100% of the time, then there is an argument that insurance rates should be close to zero.
That's not a lot of incentive for people to risk their life 50% of the time using Fake Self Driving.
They raise insurance premiums 10% each month so who cares.
They can't, it doesn't meet the criteria for that
What criteria? They fully qualify but they don't want to accept liability for "routine, safe FSD". They just need to sign with the DMV in Texas and California to accept blame if FSD messes up and there done. Waymo, Uber, and other companies have done so for SAE Level 4. It's about money, like most things :)
So you're saying the tech is good enough but they don't want to spend the money to certify? That's like me saying I'm an accounting God but I don't want to pay money to take the CPA exam
No, you are misunderstanding. The only thing between SAE 3 and FSD is Tesla telling the DMVs: “We accept financial civil responsibility if FSD makes a mistake and doesn’t prompt the driver to take over. Here’s our massive insurance bond” That money. Not the cost to get the approval. The liability shift that comes with SAE 3
Yes, exactly. If Tesla is SO confident in their tech, why not certify and brag about it+offer the functionality to its customers as SAE 3? Why is Mercedes the first one to do it? In my line of work, nobody ever says "I can do this, I'm the best, but I just don't want to do the paperwork". For a company that's trading at 170 P/E, any dollar amount for certifications and insurance should be irelevant. Dollars aren't why they don't certify. They don't, because they can't, because the tech isn't there. Tesla has the highest crash rate in the entire USA out of all brands, right ahead of Kia and Buick. Facts don't work with fandom story spinning unfortunately
Well because these are two totally different things. Tesla FSD is not an autonomous (L3+) system. It’s meant to include driver supervision. With driver supervision it makes driving safer. Without driver supervision (against design intent) driving would be less safe. Tesla is giving an insurance discount to those using the supervised product which makes driving safer. It would not make sense for them to make it L3 and no longer require driver supervision, it would not make sense for them to take liability for something that is not autonomous. For example let’s say some OEM releases an AEB system that improves safety… and they include insurance discount for using that option. You wouldn’t criticize them for not allowing drivers to take their eyes off the road which is not in scope of the product at all.
The threshold for FCW under Safety Score may be different than your personal FCW. If your personal FCW setting is on the lenient side, then that would explain why you're seeing fewer FCWs than under Safety Score
are you referring to the late/early settings? at the time, i had mine at stock.
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