Feds investigating safety of Tesla’s ‘Full Self-Driving’ feature

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Not a big surprise to long time Tesla owners, low visibility issues are where the cameras aren't perfect, however, it's important to remember that FSD is currently a Level 2 system and that the driver is always in control. I'd be shocked if the result of these investigations is anything other than "Driver wasn't paying enough attention".

Exactly. Right now Tesla has a get out of jail free card. Despite my car driving me basically unaided most of the time it's totally my fault if I crash

Exactly

And humans eyes aren't perfect either during true "low visibility". FWIW, every time when it rains I do see the message that visibility is degraded and FSD/autopilot might not perform as well but it always does just fine in the end. It's only when there is heavy rain does it ask me to take over but at that point it's really hard humans to drive too.

Just like any cruise control system or more advanced versions of that.

Another year, another investigation. These typically come and go without much actually happening. Hopefully it stays that way.

Right. Legally it's still considered cruise control, no matter how good it is. You'd never say the crash was cruise controls fault even if it totally failed

If a cruise control system “totally failed” (sudden unexpected acceleration, inability to disable, stuff like that) it would in my eyes absolutely not be the driver’s fault, it would be faulty equipment, similar to a blown tyre or an engine failure.

Yeah I meant failed like stopped working, so the drive had to drive manually again. Inability to steer or sudden acceleration in my eyes is a different mechanical problem, definitely not the drivers fault

That’s again a different situation compared to FSD though. FSD could make a mistake that causes a crash without totally failing (deactivating), cruise control cannot make “mistakes” in that sense because it only holds a speed.

Lots of cars have adaptive cruise control now. My wife's palisade will keep her in the center of the lane on the highway and in theory not ram into the car in front. But I don't think anyone would mistake it for any kind of FSD. Oh actually you know what it is, it's autopilot. That's the better comparison. Her SUV has the equivalent of autopilot. FSD legally is the same classification. in both cases whatever happens is the drivers fault

Feds should be investigating all those nutheads on the US roads. I'm sure FSD drives better than those.

Level 3 no? “System handles all aspects of driving while driver remains available to take over driving if system can no longer operate.” 2 is this: “Driver is fully responsible for driving the vehicle while system provides continuous Assistance assistance with both acceleration/braking AND steering.”

That is why I wrote Level 2...

Now only if the media would report the results and not just the investigation itself.

Teslas have more driver monitoring than most any other manufacturer’s ADAS. I suspect this is just a standard thing the NHTSA does on any manufacturer after an accident while ADAS is engaged, though the article is written to make it seem like Tesla is being singled out. Need that clickbait.

No no no; I’m arguing Tesla qualifies as level 3. These level descriptions are so vague, but to me, my car is at level 3.

No, Level 3 means you don't have to pay attention until the system tells you to (you can use your phone, watch a movie, etc.). With FSD currently, you always have to pay attention.

Tesla is not Level 3. Closeish, but also very much not

I don't know. The California Coastal Commission fucked SpaceX and did so sure to Elon's politics so I could see a new investigation deciding to pursue charges/penalties against Tesla.

Genuinely curious; why isn’t it? It looks like it matches. Do these level descriptions have more detail somewhere?

Ah, so “Remains available to take over” doesn’t mean actively baby sitting. Got it.

"Right now" - this would affect future plans *cough cough* Cybertaxicabthing

The explanation is here: https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update Once you cross into Level 3 automation and above, the manufacturer takes ownership of accidents. So, it's a liability thing. I genuinely feel like Tesla could achieve Level 3 on highways, but it's not there on City Streets yet. They need to figure out the driving into sunlight and low visibility stuff. Which is still a concern on highways, but there's less variables, like pedestrians, on the highways

Correct. Generally Level 3 systems alert you when they can no longer operate autonomously and you have at least several seconds before you need to start paying attention and/or take over.

It can drive in the sun just fine? If it loses confidence it does the human thing of slowing down, or in rare circumstances asks you to take control but I've never had that happen.

It's L3, calling it L2 is just being pedantic. You have to be ready to take over l, but it's rhetorically doing what's needed for L3.

> It can drive in the sun just fine? That's not what I said. I said: They need to figure out the driving into sunlight and low visibility stuff. I haven't had it throw up hands for sunlight issues, but I'm aware that sometimes it can't read traffic signals properly due to the sunlight. Also need to clean the outgassing from time to time.

No. Officially, per Tesla, it's Level 2. It's not about being pedantic, it's about ensuring that people recognize what the system can, and can't, do. There's a **massive** liability increase going from Level 2 to 3, and with all the FSD time I've got under my belt, since October 2021, the system is *very* much what I'd expect Level 2 to be. They're getting close to Level 3, but I'm still disengaging, and overriding bad decision making too often.

Yep. Mercedes is the only one with Level 3(meaning it’s not your fault if you crash), but it’s geofenced and restricted to oblivion. Edit: Level 3 not 4.

You cannot decide that…it’s a level 2 system!

It’s a Level 2…this is nothing to discuss…

🙄

Mercedes is highly highly limited level 3, not even remotely close to level 4. Honestly it's so limited that realistically, Tesla is closer to true level 3 than Mercedes is, they just paid the insurance premiums to be able to take on the liability and claim they have it first for the whole 2 roads it works on when those roads happen to be going under 40mph for the low low cost of something like $200 a month.

Why do people keep bringing up Mercedes in a Tesla thread ? Not even close technologically. But they have more buttons.

L3 wouldn’t care if my hands are off the wheel and my eyes are closed because it’s in charge and will notify me if it needs help. L2 has to make sure I’m paying attention because it’s not in charge, I am.

Except, no other system is trying to convince you that they are almost ready to go unsupervised.

Maybe a dumb question, but what could come of this when Tesla explicitly puts the driver as requiring supervision?

It should never have been called full self driving and tesla should be fined for false marketing. Yes i know the fine print says it's not, but they market it as though it is.

Yeah I always mix up level 3 and 4. Unsupervised FSD will likely start out at 3 too.

Is it that time of year again?

Almost certainly. Realistically Tesla FSD could support level 3 in a wider number of situations than Mercedes system today if they wanted to push for it and put sufficient limiters on the system but Mercedes' system is basically useless. It's a publicity stunt rather than a feature.

We are finally at a point where I don’t think it will crash in 9/10 drives. If I just left it to its own devices and took a nap, I’d eventually get where I’m going, although it would need an extra 10 minutes on most trips due to missing exits and having to try again.

duh??? they want lvl 5 - next year. That means lots of review and looking into it.

They do. Those articles just don't go viral the way these ones tend to.

There was already a lawsuit. Tesla prevailed.

Honestly, that's all I want at this point. Let me watch a movie on long drives and tell me when I need to take over

That's what we all want. They're trying to get there. And even further, where no takeovers are ever necessary.

As a two Tesla owner. I still think they should be forced to change the name of FSD. Let's be honest, it's not close to full self driving.

It's so safe it's nearly unusable. It reminds me of a teenager taking a driver's test. I got my 2nd free trial and turned it off after 2 days.

Is any early model 3 even capable of FSD at this point? I wonder about all of the drivers who paid for FSD and never got what they paid for.

But Tesla is being targeted. All Musks companies are being targeted Did you know one of the US agencies demanded Space X submit some kind of health and safety report for sharks and whales - in case one of their rockets hits one whilst landing in the ocean. This is observable targeting of Elon Musks companies