Hot take: PHEVs don't need more electric range

Charging everyday will degrade your battery. Batteries come with a predetermined cycle count. Bigger batteries will eventually charge less often.

Every potential buyer has different ideas of the perfect balance between EV & ICE range. We’ve had PHEVs that barely broke 15 miles but excellent ICE range, to vehicles with over 100 miles EV range, but barely 80 miles on fossil fuel. My Honda Clarity will do nearly 300 miles on a 7 gallon tank & (with 77k miles) 40-50 miles EV range. I’d, frankly, trade 100 miles of Dino juice driving for another 50 miles of electron motivation, but, since it’s become 2nd fiddle to a big battery ID.4, it’s acceptable for now.

True; I charge my PHEV to full just about every day; often more than once a day. But, as the chance of a depleted battery making the car undrivable is virtually nil, I worry about battery degradation a lot less on the PHEV than on my BEV.

Like everything PHEV, it depends. I think the ideal PHEV battery size is just a hair bigger than your median drive between charges. I would like an extra 10-20% in mine -- it would let me get to the airport and back in pure EV and it would make some of those heavy errand days easier.

Everyone's got their perfect mix. When I was living in Chicago, 40 miles was more than enough for my needs. When I moved to Orlando, my needs increased to closer to a full 40 or even closer to 50 miles. My use case was driving EV for my daily commute and the weekly highway trip out of town to burn off a gallon of gas or so at highway speeds. A tank of gas would last me several months this way. But as the ten year old battery started to approach 175K miles in the Florida sun and the constant AC that came with it, my 10KWH battery pack started making closer to 25 miles, which no longer worked for my EV commute requirement. I would have dealt with it for a few more years until a battery cell threw a fault or something, but the tax incentives going away made me consider a BEV upgrade last summer. For future proofing against inevitable degradation, a little extra range doesn't hurt. Otherwise, highway fast charging has come a long way, and is only getting better.

If you charge it from 20 to 70% everyday, you’re only charging 50%, which is half a cycle. It’s not really about how often you charge, since it all comes down to the same thing. Real degradation happens with state of charge (very high or very low) and high speed charging (heating cells, although not much of a thing on PHEVs)

I agree with you, but as a PHEV generally is a step in the EV direction, more and more range is a good thing. The less range anxiety people have, the better. I was hoping to often use just the battery, but turns out I can almost always use just the battery. Hooray! And with additional infrastructure out there, I feel even better about making the move to a full EV when it’s time for my next car. If it convinces someone that they can ultimately go full EV, what’s the harm in producing PHEVs with 100-mi ranges?

I for one would appreciate more range, but mine only has about 21 miles on a good day. That’s plenty for my commute, but I run a lot of errands.

I'm with you, more range is better. I was spoiled by my 40 mile Volt. My 530e only gets about 15 miles. 😔

Yes. The Kia PHEV is 34 mile range. With 50, that would cover everything but road trips.

If you look into the stats you will see that the phevs are often those with the most degraded batteries. If you have a bigger battery you could keep it like you said (between 20/70) and keep up with the average user commute.

Yes, that’s one reason to have a slightly bigger battery than necessary

I have no problem as long as the weight or volume don’t balloon. Often they change the chemistry of a battery to add a few extra kWh without any weight increase or larger package battery. That is purely a gain, so why not? On the other hand, a lot of German performance and luxury cars are being released with twin-turbo V8s and 25kWh battery packs. Even from a performance standpoint, it’s counterintuitive in many cases because of the weight. The new BMW M5 is 5400lbs, slower than the last generation in acceleration, AND gets hit with a gas-guzzler tax despite its 25 mile EV range.

The 30-40 miles I get out of my Tucson PHEV is perfectly fine for my use case. Anything much larger battery-wise and I think I’d probably just get a full blown EV instead. Now I do think for pickup trucks a case can be made for a range-extending EV setup with a larger battery for tow/haul purposes

I get about 40 with my rav4 prime, would be nice to get about double that.

Too specific to really make a blanket statement. If they have to drive 60mi a day, but also 300+ every so often and dont want charging anxiety, it still makes sense to me. I'd love to have another 20mi electric range on my PHEV tbh.

There’s only 1 right answer: the capacity should be modular and the customer can choose the right capacity for their individual use case. Everybody who cites a median is excluding 50% of the market. And rarely do I see somebody include the 30% reduction in battery range when it’s below freezing (real world results).

It all depends on how far someone drives there is no best battery size. But just having a larger battery is better for battery life. If you have 40 miles of range under ideal summer conditions it may only be 30-32 in the winter. Then in 4-5 years it's lost 3 miles of range, down to 37 in the summer and 27 in the winter. You want more range then necessary to account for future loss of range. If you drive 30 miles a day and use 75%-90% of your battery capacity daily that is a lot of deep cycles. If you have 60 miles of range and cycle the battery 50% rather than 90% it will last much longer.

Yep. 90% of car trips in the US are less than 30 miles round trip. That's why so many PHEVs have a little more than 30 miles of electric range... they're literally perfect for 90% of *all* trips. But, for some people, 30 miles is 99% of their trips, and for other people it's only 1%. So ya, for most people, PHEVs don't need more range, especially if you also have an ICE vehicle in your garage or you have a bit of extra time to stop and charge on those longer trips.

It's a distribution. 30 miles / 50 km will cover 50% of all drives by all drivers. Even then for some individuals that could be 0%, 50% or 100% of their journeys. Now what if you want to cover 80%? What should the range be?

Counterpoint: I worry about battery degradation a lot more on a PHEV because that triggers a CEL (auto fail emissions test) in an emissions state.

I think this is the point that matters. Car companies will aim for the biggest pool of buyers with similar needs. I drive over 200 miles about twice a week in a cold climate at highway speeds and road trip twice a month and enjoy ICE quite a bit for that. But the other days I only need like 15 miles. So a phev is perfect for me, but on some days I need about 60-100 miles of EV. I think EREVs might be in my future.

When EV's achieved 300 miles of range, many polls showed that potential customers still expressed concern about range anxiety. This was even in the face of the fact that a bigger battery costs more and makes the EV heavier. Everyone seems to be excited about new Chinese EV's with 500 miles of range. Most of the PHEV's seem to have an "electric only" range of maybe 30 miles. I recall seeing a certain Toyota that had 50 miles, and I thought that was pretty good. I would be pretty excited to find one that had maybe 80 miles of range. If I had a choice of several sizes of battery with the biggest model being 150 miles, I would take the 80-mile pack. Why pay extra for range I don't use?

Mine gets 25 and it’s not enough. We also have EVs and I use them way more often. I hate using gas. 25 miles isn’t as much as I thought. I charge it twice a day on days I drive it. That’s absurd. I charge the EVs once a week. Had I not had an EV first I might have a different opinion. I knew the range was only 25 when I bought it but I didn’t consider that I need 2 hours to charge it every time I drive 25 miles. I’m used to just charging overnight and ignoring it. 40 would be better. I could prob get 2 days on that or at least all of one day. I drove all over today and the PHEV was left in the garage.

Everyone with a phev should... I have mine <70%soh in a 2020 car. It started to act a little with this kind of soh, starting the ICE here and there for no reason. The dealer says that the battery needs replacement and is no longer in warranty, quoted nearly 10k.

100 miles would be a sweet spot.

Because averages are aberrations. It is true that the average person drives about 40 miles a day. It is also true that the average person doesn't drive 40 miles on a typical day. Most people commute five days a week, meaning they drive more than average five days a week. Most people also have lives outside of commuting. Maybe they go to the gym three days a week, or drive their kids to soccer practice periodically, or have poker night every Friday. I personally drive significantly less than the average person. I average about 120 miles a week. Some days it's just my commute (about 6 miles). Yesterday it was 80 miles because I chauffeured my wife to a work function. Last weekend I did about 60 one day because we had two social functions. TL;DR: Even people who drive an average of 40 miles a day often drive more than 40 miles on a typical day (this is why my wife passed on a PHEV) and daily needs can be highly variable.

The length of an individual trip isn't an especially helpful metric. Consider a day: 15 mile commute to work 15 mile commute back home 4 mile drive to the grocery store 2 mile drive to the pharmacy 2 mile drive to the post office 2 mile drive back to the house 3 mile drive to drop a kid off at the movies 3 mile drive back home 3 mile drive to pick the kid up 3 mile drive back home You can easily blow through 30-40 miles of range without ever taking a single 30-40 mile trip.

For lithium ion batteries, a smaller "depth of discharge" is better for battery health. Better to have 100 miles of range and only discharge 50% of it before recharging than to have 50 miles of range and discharge 100% of it every day. However, I've heard (from the internet, and I haven't verified it, so take this with a grain of salt) that batteries have been getting better in terms of long-term health, so it might not be that big a deal. On the flipside, if you can get away with a smaller battery, then that's better for the environment. Battery manufacturing produces a lot of emissions, so the smaller the battery, the quicker the car should break even on emissions compared to an ICE vehicle (as long as the battery isn't *too* small, forcing it to switch to gas too often).

This has been my thinking as well, for nearly every PHEV, I wish they had a version that did like 70-80mi EV; that way even on cold days it could do a long commute, but also still have a 200mi proper highway ICE for road trips. I'm pretty sure the only thing stateside that has had that type of EV range is the i3 REx, but that had a weak little motor, only designed to limp to an EV charger. My hot take is that I think these could be easier to sell to all the holdouts than actual BEV, until infrastructure is way more built out. It's hard to tell if there is a valid sale price for that vehicle though, if it has an expensive battery AND expensive ICE. Then again, people spend $70k+ are some pretty odd ice vehicles, if there was a fast long-range PHEV for $59k it would have a market. Of course most manufacturers have no idea how to sell a PHEV, and their dealerships don't know and don't want to. I'm very curious how that few EREV (PHEV really) pickups sell if they ever make it to market, I think there's the GMC, Scout, and maybe Hyundai? To tack on one more rant, I'd like to see something like Estate wagons with a BMW-style PHEV drivetrain. It would help with the issue of fitting the battery+hybrid system+still have storage, and an aerodynamic wagon would be easier to push extra MPGe than a tall SUV like the X5 is. Also, have you been happy with your Clarity? I thought that was going to by next vehicle this month, but I'm now also looking at 2nd gen Volt, since it's similar EV mileage for about $6k cheaper. And I prefer the styling of the Volt, despite less cargo and seating room.

Is that the last gen Niro & Sportage PHEV with that range? My understanding is that some manufacturers want to make sure the ICE engine is getting used regularly enough to still need dealer maintenance, and that's part of the reason the EV distance is usually a bit less than ideal. I liked how my Ford handled keeping the ICE managed, if I accelerated up an on-ramp it would add extra power with the ICE for about 2 minutes. Even with 5-day commute I was able to only fill up every 2-3 months when that battery was new.

Yeah for Florida, the southeast sprawl, it's be great to have a 60-80mi EV PHEV, that could also use the engine to assist with AC and high speeds. Nothing like that really exists, or never has in the US.

I am happy with my 55km (34mi) PHEV. Does 90% of my usual daily needs and the ICE covers the rest. Full EV is always on my radar but choosing the right one to fit our lifestyle is the hard part. In saying that, we are open to the option of 1 x EV and 1 x PHEV or ICE. Again, that’s a future us decision.

The 530e is the exact type of drivetrain that I wish had 45mi or so. Would be a great single-car option for a couple that travels sometimes.

I did in fact go full electric. For a PHEV, I'd have needed 100 miles of range to make my commute fully electric, as I can only charge at work. That amount of battery is probably a bit much for a vehicle that also needs an engine and gas tank. If I could charge at home, 50 miles would probably be enough to go fully electric for almost anything other than long trips, and I think I'd have been satisfied with that.

Same! It's annoying how often people will suggest "well just get a real EV", well no, that doesn't fix the issue; I want something that can do a regular weekend drive across the state and not have to gamble with very sparse chargers. But it'd also be great to have my commute only power up the ice for acceleration, or if I skip plugging in at home.

Username checks out.

That's a great point about cold temps, I try to keep that in mind. Modular would be amazing, but it's hard to imagine an American company doing it. There is a company or two across the EU & China that has battery swap stations (don't always work), that type of platform it seems like could offer someone a purchase for a different battery size. Although, weight distribution could be difficult to manage. But damn if we're just dreaming, wouldn't it be amazing if there was a tax incentive for vehicles that had a modular PHEV drivetrain. So like the base model Kwh would maybe be slightly bigger than a Prius HEV but with a charge port. But you could upgrade that vehicle all the way up to like 160mi pack. That would actually let all the never-EV people with unnecessary range anxiety be able to experience for themselves and upgrade later.

Yeah I agree that 80mi would be a rather sweet spot for a lot of buyers. I would also add though for something with 100-150 range, for people with a longer commute, it would be better for the battery lifespan for them to be not quite running that down to zero every day. Also bear in mind that cold temps can heavily cut into that EV range. What's wild is that no company has tried making a higher range one, and no company or dealer can market a PHEV *at all*. And they have to put up with all the bs FUD articles saying "plugins suck". They get the worst end of the ICE people *and* the BEV people. If we still had the Paris & 2012-era mpg goals, and a real EPA, we could probably see a lot more people happy with plugins. Educated buyers love them.

Sure if we would get that range in all weathers. I have PHEV that does around 70miles but in winter with preheating that drops significantly.  Same thing with EVs. 300 miles at all speeds and weather would be fine but on colder days in highway things changes.

VW has PHEV that does it unfortunately none in US for some reason. I have Skoda Kodiaq it does around 70miles although this year we had crazy cold winter so range drop was massive. Other than that it's great.

For battery health and longevity, you maybe want something like 40% more battery than you generally use, that way you can charge to 80% and use to 20% and the battery will last the life of the car. I’ve got an old outlander PHEV and the range has degraded so much it has maybe 10-15mi EV range left. Almost not worth plugging in at all.

Exactly 💯💯💯

BMW has the 330e and 530e as wagons afaik.

I wish there was a PHEV that let me set a specific speed where it automatically switches from electric to ice engine. If It would prioritize electric under 50mph and use the ice over 50 it would be perfect for my daily driving around town and when I go longer distances it would not deplete the battery so quickly on the faster roads and save it for lower speed driving at the destination. I don’t want to manually have to fiddle with different modes when I drive.

Glad someone else thinks this, too!

Largely agree. PHEVs aren't BEVs and shouldn't be driven as such: the ICE needs to be used periodically anyway, and a great way to do this is simply at higher speeds. An entire daily commute doesn't necessarily need to be done all-electric. Using HEV mode on the freeway and EV or AUTO mode on surface streets lets me stretch the 31 all-electric miles my Tucson gets a whole lot farther, for example, and using HEV mode on the freeway provides a nicer drive: the 90 hp electric motor is excellent on surface streets but can feel a bit anemic during freeway driving.

The issue with PHEV is that people don't charge them at all.

I mean some of it is just extension of the tech some of it is to win over people with unreasonable range anxiety

Haha.

You can drown in a river with an average depth of 0,3m

I’ve had 4 x PHEV so far with the following EV ranges: 35 miles (frequently over 45), 11 miles (woof), 47 miles, and 30 miles. If you stayed on top of it, all of them were fine except the Plugin Prius (11 miles) and that really just wasn’t enough to do much. We charged it religiously, but it was kind of a bust. Anything with 30+ is genuinely useful in my opinion. (We’re also on our 3rd full EV, and will likely switch to 2 different ones in the next 12 months)

Definitely there is a point where you start to lose return due to added weight. I think Ford struck the perfect balance with the Escape, which is what I have. It has a pretty decent electric range, 37 miles, and yet it's the only PHEV that has better gas mileage than its pure hybrid counterpart. So many other manufacturers went with much larger, heavier batteries, either to try to eke out range or to boost performance.

The 2026 has the same range. New Rav4 increased to 50 miles, I believe. Yes, the gas engine comes on when needed for heat and acceleration.

I’ve never lived with a 2nd gen Volt, but it would be on my short list if the Clarity died and I couldn’t find a decent Clarity to replace it with. I’ve been extremely happy with the Clarity; my day to day driving has me running nearly all EV, often with several (48 amp ChargePoint) Level 2 top offs per day. There are quirks; like the Volt, it’s mostly a series hybrid: Except for interstate speeds (and, even then, rarely direct “engine to wheels” drive), you have solely the electric motor powering the wheels, and the battery being charged by the engine in HEV mode. There isn’t a “charge hold” mode, and, when you’re in HEV mode, you do lose some charge as the system cycles between EV & HEV mode. If you let the battery deplete entirely (2 bars left; about 10%) you get the dreaded “angry bees” where the engine revs ceaselessly every time you apply throttle; not hurting anything, but really annoying, and you’re gonna have reduced power on hills. There is a HEV Charge mode that lets you charge the batter back up while driving, but you can’t engage it ‘till the battery falls below 50% and it will only charge up to 55% of indicated “full” battery. When on trips, I tend to drive on the highway in HEV mode, reverting to EV for gas & food stops and local sightseeing. In areas with a lot of hills or mountains, I use the charge mode to keep the battery up to maintain speed & sanity on climbs. There’s a learning curve to all this, and some folks can’t (or wont) learn, and those folks complain about it A LOT! If you play the system like a violin, you get 40-45 mpg in HEV mode and, at least for me, near 100% EV when you’re local.

Yep, agree

I just got a PHEV, after 9 years of Lexus Hybrids. I could have gone full electric, but I just don't want to ever have to spend more than 5 mins at a gas/petrol station on my way home after a long drive for work. So fill tank/empty bladder/done is where I am at right now... Also I think Full EVs are like early smart phones. There are real improvements every few years, not like now, when you change your phone when it breaks or the battery is annoyingly screwed. Think the EVs launched in ~2025 will seem old hat in 5 years. Look at 2022/2023 EV depreciation, it is brutal....

We have a Mazda cx90 PHEV , it barely works in the winter.... it literally won't even let me use Electric mode on many winter days even if fully charged. I think in warm weather I can drive to town and back (say 20 miles Round trip). So its definitely on the low, low end of what is useful/usable.

I want a vehicle that can do a roundtrip to a destination 50 miles away on electric only and thus use no gas almost all of the time but can also be used for camping or road trips to remote areas far from plentiful electric chargers and can also drive 600-700 miles in a day on a road trip while having the optionality to stop and refuel at whatever refueling station happens to be near the restaurants I want to eat at or destinations I want to visit. Even if these latter are not the use cases more than 5% of the time, the additional flexibility of refueling locations can be extremely valuable during late nights or time-constrained vacations or times when a family member is extremely hungry. EV-only charging can definitely be done on road trips and in some out of the way places, but it is definitely not at parity with gas-only charging and thus certainly not compared to flex electri-or-gas refueling. People use the phrase "range anxiety" but that's not my perspective at all. To me, plug-in-hybrids provide extra flexibility and that flexibility can be hugely valuable at times.

My wife's 25 GLC 350e will get 65mi on a charge in the summer and a good 53mi in the winter with a ICE range of 300mi. Fits most of her driving. My GLE 450e will do 56mi on a full summer charge and 48mi in the winter with a 400mi ICE range. Best thing about the GLE is it will tow 7700LBS which I need. The GLC tows 3500LBS..

Lotus Eletre hybrid has like a 80+ kwh battery and a miserable 2.0 liter 4 banger. Just what is the point in that.

No. I can't charge daily. So I would need an electric range enough to cover 3-4 days of driving.

My commute is 80 miles round trip. So I’d enjoy a PHEV with 100 miles of range. It all depends on the person how much range is ideal.

I had the same thought, I went BEV