How different is the battery technology?

Take a look at John Cadogans review of the Mitsubishi outlander PHEV in the Flinders ranges 😉

do not look at John Cadogans review of anything

Such a waffling arse, 30mins to say something that should take 5mins and then usually misses the mark due to his inherent anti EV bias

NMC has an energy density maybe 20% higher than LFP. Sounds good, but, NMC requires more sophisticated thermal management and ages more quickly if left at high charge. This has two main effects. Owners are advised not to charge above 80% for daily use, and on road trips most NMC battery charge curves slow significantly earlier in the charge than LFP. This means it is easier to use the max capacity of an LFP than NMC, and most of the time an LFP battery with slightly smaller max capacity has more practical usable range. Of course it depends on the car and battery, but explains why many NMC batteries are not quite as good as their numbers may imply, and LFP may be slightly better. NMC is undoubtedly higher performance, but comes with the cost of being fussier to manage and quicker to age.

Hyundai Ioniq uses an NMC battery (Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt). BYD, the new Hyundai Elexio, Kia EV5, and many other EVs use LFP batteries (Lithium Iron Phosphate). NMC chemistry allows higher power output and typically faster charging, but it’s less thermally stable. If damaged or overcharged damaged cells can burn intensely and for a long time. Incidents are uncommon today, but there was a recent Volvo recall related to fire risk. LFP, especially BYD Blade cells are much more stable. They can be nail penetrated without ignition. A rocket strike landed next to a BYD Atto 3 in Israel recently and the battery didn’t ignite or smoke. LFP is less energy dense, but for most drivers it doesn’t really matter. Vehicle weight ends up similar because less fire protection hardware is needed. The main trade-off is usually slower charging speeds.

Agreed, when I was looking for a Hybrid hatchback his video said "you want a hybrid? no you dont." and tried to dissuade me from the powertrain I'd selected. Same when I came to buy an EV. He's a petrolhead weathervane of strong opinions.

Battery tech is largely irrelevant to the user. Manufacturing costs for batteries have certainly been dropping due to the tech development, but you aren't in the manufacturing business. Furthermore, the biggest thing to the user as far as longevity and charge speeds is normally the quality of the thermal management. And that can be good/bad on a separate axis from NMC vs LFP (or even who made the cells, since all the battery makers sell different levels at different price points)

I would advise you look into Hyundai Ioniq owners issues with their ICCU. Lots of reported failures, with no apparent fix from Hyundai apart from replacing the unit and hope it doesn't brick itself. Waiting time is long for replacement and what happens when it fails outside of warranty? Great cars, but I would at least consider the risk if you are planning to take it outside the metro areas. Only you can decide what your risk tolerance is.

On the other hand, LFP is heavier so is generally not found in long range trims except for BYD, who manufacture and innovate LFP batteries and have gone all in with the technology in their entire range and trims, including PHEV and performance. I suspect this explains why BYD cars are heavier and are generally less efficient than other brands. Slight downsides, but worth mentioning, LFP is a little more sensitive to the cold so more likely to get reduced regenerative braking when temps are <12°C.

LFP also gets significantly reduced charging speeds when cold if the car does not have battery preheating. Due to their prismatic structure, they're also harder to cool and tend to rapidgate (overheat during charging, resulting in significantly reduced charging speeds) if a proper cooling solution isn't integrated. BYD cars all have this problem (because they only run just a single AC refrigerant loop on merely the top plate of the battery, not down the sides, bottom or inside the battery). Other brands with LFP batteries (e.g. KGM Torres/Musso using BYD blade cells too) don't have this problem, due to the carmaker having made a proper cooling solution for it. Tesla Model Y RWD made in Berlin also use BYD blade cells, and don't rapidgate either because of its advanced cooling design.

Get a 2nd hand Tesla Y AWD, and fit an electric tow brake. I have the rwd and the towing is effortless.

This is why I didn't even consider the Ioniq when looking recently. I'm happy with my Atto3.

Is the Kona the same?

No, different platform.

Almost right, but vehicle weight is not similar it's a significant reason why BYDs (and others are so heavy)

BYD atto 3 60kWh LFP - 1750kg Geely EX5 60kWh LFP - 1715-1765kg KIA EV3 air 58kWh NMC - 1845kg Smart #3 66kWh NMC - 1780 - 1910kg BYD Seal 61kWh LFP - 1922kg KIA EV 4 - 58kWh NMC 1805kg

1. LFP temp stuff really isnt much of a concern for our climate. Even if its a bit chilly, the battery thermal management keeps temps where they need to be. 2. If its like 5 degrees in Sydney, honestly not much to worry about. Places like Norway are a totally different story. Personally I think LFP is a great fit for Australia. Heat is usually the bigger challenge for EVs here. Warming the battery is easier anyway since EVs generate heat pretty quickly and the system can hold that warmth without using much extra energy.

If LFP EV has no battery thermal management then it's a horrible design. I don't know of any such EV yet.

LFP vs NMC leaks into usage and ownership experience. Manufacturers specifically advise NMC charging to e.g. 80%, LFP ones advise frequent 100% charge for recalibration. They impact user behaviour and how we use our cars. It's not only a cost issue.

What are your towing requirements?

LFP EVs all generally have some sort of cooling - just that not all cooling solutions are good. BYD vehicles’ cooling solution is adequate for daily/urban driving, but not suited for long distances where you need to charge twice or more during the journey. Tesla, Xpeng and Zeekr don’t have this problem with their LFP vehicles.

Can you please provide evidence/support for this claim: BYD cooling is adequette for daily/urban but not suited for long distances.

Go and watch all of Bjørn Nyland's 1000km challenges involving BYD cars - every single one of them rapidgated (battery overheat resulting in significantly reduced charging speeds) by the second or third charging stops during the challenge. This was even in freezing cold Norwegian winters - his test with the Sealion 7 (both before and after the charging curve update) are good examples. Ditto with the Atto 3 as well. [Sealion 7 1000 km challenge](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ1KokYSsg8&pp=ygUbc2VhbGlvbiA3IDEwMDAga20gY2hhbGxlbmdl0gcJCcUKAYcqIYzv) [Atto 3 1000 km challenge](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQN_njq_pNE&pp=ygUYYXR0byAzIDEwMDAga20gY2hhbGxlbmdl) [Seal 1000 km challenge](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAiJ8GezlGc&pp=ygUaYnlkIHNlYWwgMTAwMCBrbSBjaGFsbGVuZ2U%3D) If they rapidgate even in Norwegian winters, they're most definitely going to rapidgate in our much warmer climate. This is because BYD only runs an AC refrigerant loop on merely the top plate of the battery. Not down the sides, the bottom, and not inside the pack. This is widely documented on Chinese platforms like Xiaohongshu. Meanwhile, the same test with a Berlin-made Model Y RWD (also using BYD Blade cells) did not encounter any rapidgating at all. PS - as a native Chinese speaker (and being Chinese), we see BYDs as cheap cars mainly used for ridesharing, or as budget offerings. We don't actually consider it a good car by any measure. For the most part, they're better than what most legacy carmakers offer, but compared with the rest of the competition back in China, they're pretty mediocre. The only reason they're famous is because they spend a lot in marketing, and engage in very ferocious price wars to drown everyone else out. And they also engage cybertroopers on social media, bot farming, and the occasional lawsuit to silence overly-unfavorable criticisms. Unfortunately down here in Australia, we don't get a lot of the nicer stuff that the Chinese market gets (e.g. Li Auto, any of the Huawei Alliance brands like Avatr/AITO/Luxeed, Xiaomi, etc.) - and whatever Chinese cars that are available down here are dumbed-down compared to the Chinese domestic market versions that have more advanced hardware and totally different software.

...as an aside, don't get conned by 'statistics' re. charging speed. In the ACT and much of regional NSW around where I live, there aren't many public DC chargers above 150kW. 95% of AC home chargers will only be on single-phase and 7kW anyhow - evening up the field for all EVs. Consider 'charging curves' also - some EVs charge like a rocket for the first 10 minutes then slow right down - others are flatter and consistent (think 'tortoise and hare'). Other EVs may not have a heat pump so its real world range drops in winter more than others. Does it have intelligent recuperation? Can the car easily pre-condition its battery automatically as it approaches a charger? Plenty of things to consider.

Thanks for the share. I see what's happening. The focus seems to be heavily on rapid-gating, which honestly I don't feel it matters in real EV usage. How often are people fast-charging multiple times in a single day and suddenly can’t accept slightly slower charging on the third stop? That's like driving from Sydney to Brisbane and still going further up and complaining about fast-charging after Brisbane not being fast enough! That’s a pretty niche scenario. Even taxi or delivery drivers probably wouldn’t run into that in real life since they need breaks anyway for HSE reasons. That’s why I pushed back on the comment that **BYD isn’t suited for long distances and is only adequate for city driving**. After receiving the evidence I call this statement FALSE! The specific scenario and limitation is true but connecting that to the sweeping statement is significant and poorly justified leap. FWIW I just finished a long-distance trip myself and it was more than adequate probably better than what I thought SL7 would do. I also believe the OP is perhaps unintentionally mislead by receiving otherwise-technically-correct information. From engineering POV, adding complexity for such a rare edge case is over-engineering. Who really cares about that?! It's nice debate on a lab scenario but doesn't translate to actual real-world usage for definitely significant majority but probably almost all users. As for BYD as a brand, that’s mostly subjective and honestly not that relevant to this specific point.

Your argument makes sense except for two things. China BYD splits its cars into different brands depending on premium features, so there all the cheaply built cars are BYD branded, and the good ones Denza, Fangchanbao, Yangwang etc. The cars they release to international markets are built to a different spec. Most manufacturers do that. Depending on where you buy a Hyundai or Kia they may just run the same coolant loop thermal management system as the cheapest BYDs etc. In aus for example any BYD model above the Atto 1 will get a heat pump as standard, and our current Hyundai models come with one, but in most european markets you have to pay extra for the thermal upgrade. Anyway Chinese insight on Australian models isn’t always going to translate because we get literally different cars here. (This is how BYD has racked up nearly 100 distinct models by now.) Bjorn Nyland challenges are not normal driving. Most Australians don’t drive 1000km at a steady 130kph stopping only to stress the battery by charging at the highest power possible. The behavior of the BMS and thermal system is going to work however the manufacturer has defined it. For better or worse the way BYD charge curves work looks like rapidgate as Bjorn defines it despite the thermals not correlating with actual rapidgate behavior. In a software defined vehicle sometimes it’s the software not the hardware that produces the limitation. Bjorn finds all the edge cases specifically because he is testing for them. Anyway I would be careful drawing conclusions based on different global markets. LFP is a cheaper technology, so tends to be built into cheaper cars, so the limitations are often a product of the budget rather than the underlying tech. In cars with a higher margin and expectation they can afford to engineer around limitations.

Re market segmentation: Every BYD car here in Australia is also branded as a BYD in China (albeit with different model names). Denzas here are also either Denzas or Fangchengbaos in China. Some hardware might be different (e.g. different infotainment software, dumbed-down ADAS hardware), but the fundamentals remain the same. The fundamental mechanical spec (drivetrain, thermal management system) isn't wildly different for international markets. As for our driving behavior: We might only cruise at 110 for the most part, but our much warmer climate offsets that. And the rapidgate behavior happens not even 500km into the drive - which is around typical road-tripping distances that I'd think most of us would do on holidays. I have experienced that rapidgate myself on a Melbourne to Sydney drive in a Sealion 7, and I was only just past the VIC/NSW border on my second charging stop when the max cell temperature crossed the rapidgating threshold not long into that charging session. The thermals do correlate with actual rapidgating behavior; Bjørn has consistently shown that the rapidgate only happens beyond a certain maximum temperature value for the max cell temperature sensor (reported through OBD and seen in CarScanner). The rapidgate behavior disappears once the temperature falls below that threshold; unfortunately it does not cool down fast enough between the drive to the next charger, and builds up heat rapidly again during the charging session. I also disagree with your comment "stress the battery at the highest power possible". It's not like the BYDs in his tests were charging at high speed either (rarely hitting 200 kW, most of the time below that, and with cheaper models like the Atto 3, not even exceeding 90 kW). On the other hand, you don't see this behavior with the BYD Blade cells in a Berlin-made Tesla Model Y RWD, where the temperatures are much better controlled. You don't see this in the KGM Torres either, which also uses BYD Blade cells. And...it's not like the Sealion 7 is cheap. It's around the same price as a base Zeekr 7X RWD with LFP battery, or Xpeng G6 facelift with LFP battery; you don't see this behavior in these cars because they utilize proper liquid cooling throughout the entire pack. They even have much higher peak and sustained speeds too. If that's not thermals, then what would that be?

Maybe you haven't driven long enough then? I did a Melbourne-Sydney trip in a SL7 before as well, and I experienced thermal throttling by my second charging stop just after the VIC/NSW border, because the max cell temperature had gone past the threshold for rapidgating (reported via OBD scanner). The max cell temperature value did not go down quickly enough during the drives to the next charging stops, so I was only able to get one good session without thermal throttling - which was in my first charging stop. All other stops had slower charging curves after that, which to me was not acceptable for the price point. You don't see that behavior in a base Zeekr 7X with LFP battery, or an Xpeng G6 either. I stand by my point that it isn't suitable for long distance driving. 300-400km is fine, but that is not considered long distance at all. Once you go past that, it's when the weaknesses start showing up.

Not sure. All the European BYD charge curves I’ve seen are stepped instead of smooth, which looks like software defined to me.

Once again you focused on technical analysis of whether that situation has occurred; whereas debate is whether or not the situation happening actually matters! Why would we present something neglect-able for nearly all users as a make-or-break feature?! You also said: **it isn't suitable for long distance driving.** You cannot simply make sweeping statements and loop back to technical jargon glazing the main argument. You seem knowledgable on the topic yet your judgement on connecting the dots to real-life experience has flaws. Put it this way, in your Melb\~Syd trip, with your 3rd fast charging, how much did you REALLY care about the slower fast charging? Was the impact enough to label the car 'unfit' for road trips? And also go as far as invalidating experiences of other people as 'not far enough'? It's like saying jet engine is faster than petrol v8 so all v8s are not appropriate for road trip because they are slow. Poor attempt of connecting technical facts to sweeping statements. I have travelled in Europe enough in EVs and my main issue was always been finding reliable fast chargers which work and almost never I cared about charging speed being 150 or 50.

Sounds like maybe you want a shark then. Towing anything long distance will cut your range the same as how it chews fuel in an ICE vehicle. What do you want to tow and what sort of km’s is your usual towing journey going to be?